From: Kerby Miller
Subject: Re: Ir-D Akenson, Montserrat

I would be curious to learn Brian McGinn's opinion of Akenson's book on
Montserrat. (I assumed, perhaps unfairly, that Montserrat was merely Don's
stand-in for Northern Ireland.) Has Brian ever reviewed it?
Kerby.


>Here is the H-Net review of Akenson, Montserrat...
>
>P.O'S.
>
>Donald Harman Akenson. If the Irish Ran the World: Montserrat, 1630-1730.
>Joanne Goodman
>Lectures, 1997. London and Buffalo: McGill-Queen's University Press, 1997.
>xi + 273 pp.
>Notes, maps, appendices, bibliography, and index. $55.00 (cloth), ISBN
>0-7735-1630-1;
>$22.95 (paper), ISBN 0-7735-1686-7.
>Reviewed by Bruce Taylor, University of Dayton.
>Published by H-LatAm (April, 1999)
>
>
>If the Irish Ran the World is a delightful collection of stories and
>one-liners about the
>Irish in Montserrat. While Akenson does not tell us enough to make a
>judgement about what
>kind of world the Irish would have made if given the chance, or even what
>kind of slave
>society they actually made in the Caribbean, by the time one finishes the
>book, the reader
>has forgotten the title anyway.
>

From: "alex peach"
Subject: Re: Ir-D Irish lawyers

I met an American PhD student named Craig Bailey at a conference in Durham 2
years ago. We had a mutual interest in English beer which clouds my memory
somewhat...however I seem to remember his PhD was on Irish Professionals in
18thC London which he was studying in London somewhere. he has either
finished or is around the UK or America....well that narrows it down!

Does anyone know him, I would like to get back in touch as he was a "top
chap" as we say in this neck of the woods and he would probably have some
interesting comments regarding Lawyers in London.

Alex Peach

Historical and International Studies
DeMontfort University
Leicester
UK


- -----Original Message-----
From: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
To: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
Date: 30 March 2000 12:30
Subject: Ir-D Irish lawyers


>
>From Patrick O'Sullivan
>
>The key figure in the history of Irish law and lawyers is most probably W.
N. Osborough,
>Trinity College Dublin, who has written numerous articles and some books.
I could
>construct the beginnings of a list, from material to hand - but someone
else might know
>where it is immediately available.
>
>But it is a developing area - see
>http://www.iap.ie/leghist.htm
>
>and
>http://www.dcu.ie/~comms/ckenny/kenny.htm
>Colum Kenny's home page
>
>This issue is of great interest to Irish Diaspora Studies, and could take
us in a number
>of directions.
>
>Thus, there are the famous Penal Laws - which were, in the end, laws. I

>From Patrick O'Sullivan

Just to remind everyone...

Today is the last day of our traditional St. Patrick's Day Competition...

I will go tomorrow, April 1, and clean out the special Competition email address.

Here, again, are the rules for the year 2000 Competition...



St. Patrick's Day Competition
UNLIKELY MONUMENTS

Irish Diaspora Studies has fairly been described as the history of the universe, from the
Irish point of view.

As we look around the universe we see that even the stars have their own Irish resonances.
In the southern hemisphere, for example, there is the Southern Cross which looked down on
Peter Lalor at the Eureka Stockade. In the northern hemisphere we have O'Ryan's Belt.

Throughout the world there are monuments of the Irish Diaspora, if we can only learn to
look at the world with Irish-Diaspora-awareness.

The theme of the Irish-Diaspora List Traditional St. Patrick's Day Competition for the
year 2000 is

UNLIKELY MONUMENTS

Competitors are invited to pick an item, an object, a thing or a whatsit and nominate it
as an UNLIKELY MONUMENT of the Irish Diaspora. You should imagine that you are taking a
visitor on an Irish-Diaspora-aware tour of your neighbourhood.

Marks will be awarded for

incongruity
ingenuity
plausibility
implausibility
bare-faced cheek
laziness
and
scholarship

I had better explain the last two...

laziness: the least physical effort will gain most marks. If I take my visitor to my
study window and point out my neighbour's prize catalpa that would gain more marks than
making the poor soul climb up to Ilkley Moor to look at 'the Celtic Rose'

scholarship: the scholarship must be genuine and supported by full scholarly references.

Competitors will need to bear in mind the conflicting and arbitrary demands of this
marking system. The decisions of the Irish-Diaspora List Traditional St. Patrick's Day
Competition Marking Sub-Committee (I-DLTSPDMS-C) will be arbitrary, and will be final.

Entries should be sent to this special St. Patrick's Day Competition email address


NOT to the Irish-Diaspora list email address.

The closing date is Friday March 31 2000

However, entries are welcome from this moment onwards. Regular reports will appear on the
Ir-D list, and really good examples of UNLIKELY MONUMENTS will be shared with the members
of the Ir-D list.

There will be prizes.

Good Luck, everyone.

Paddy O'Sullivan


- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Irish-Diaspora list
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Interdisciplinary Human Studies
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England

From: Professor John Belchem
Subject: Re: Ir-D Thanks 1


Hope this is not too late to add to Kerby's new British
history list, but don't overlook the Isle of Man in the
very centre of the British Isles, a fascinating case study
for issues of Britishness, celticness and devolution. Now
for the plug: see my paper, `The Little Manx Nation:
antiquarianism, ethnic identity and home rule politics in
the Isle of Man, 1880-1918' in the forthcoming issue of the
Journal of British Studies. John Belchem
On Thu 30 Mar 2000 07:27:00 +0000
irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk wrote:

>
> From: Kerby Miller
> Subject: thanks
>
> Many thanks to all those who kindly responded to my inquiry with
> suggestions of books on Scottish and Welsh history for my colleague's and
> my seminar on the "new British history." I look forward to reading them
> all (if I can only find the time!).
> Kerby Miller.

----------------------
ah14[at]liverpool.ac.uk
Professor John Belchem, Head of School
School of History, University of Liverpool
9 Abercromby Square, Liverpool L69 7WZ
Phone: (0)151-794-2394 Fax (0)151-794-2366

From: Patrick Maume
Subject: Re: Kenneth Morgan

From: Patrick Maume
As I mentioned in connection with this topic Ivor Richard's
statement that some time ago Tony Blair turned down a proposal by Jim
Callaghan that Kenneth Morgan should get a peerage, I should note that
he is included in the new list of peers published this morning. It's
good to see tribute paid to a pioneer of Welsh history (not to mention
his work in other areas) whose work is a useful starting-place if
you're trying to compare the modern Welsh and Irish experiences.
Best wishes,
Patrick Maume

On Thu 30 Mar 2000 07:27:00 +0000 irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk wrote:

> From:irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk> Date: Thu 30 Mar 2000 07:27:00
+0000
> Subject: Ir-D Thanks 1
> To: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
>
>
> From: Kerby Miller
> Subject: thanks
>
> Many thanks to all those who kindly responded to my inquiry with
> suggestions of books on Scottish and Welsh history for my
colleague's and
> my seminar on the "new British history." I look forward to reading
them
> all (if I can only find the time!).
> Kerby Miller.

From: "Brian McGinn"
Subject: Montserrat

To appreciate what the Soufriere Hills Volcano has done to
the southern half of the Caribbean's Emerald Isle, take a
look at some recent aerial photographs at
http://mni.ms/photos/103/photo25/page2.shtml


Brian McGinn
Alexandria, Virginia
bmcginn[at]clark.net

From: Craig Bailey
Subject: Irish lawyers


I must thank Alex Peach for his kind introduction of me to the
Irish Diaspora List. Although I have been an Irish-Diaspora list member for some
time, this is the first time I have participated in a discussion, so
perhaps it would be useful just to quickly clarify who I am. I am
currently in the third year of my PhD at Univ. of London (King's and
Institute Historical Research) and will hopefully submit this autumn.
When I had last met Alex, the subject of my dissertation was broadly
Irish professionals in London c1780-1840. I have now gone through a
period of creative title making, and at the moment my title stands at
- -Crossing the Irish Sea, Middling Irish in London c 1780-1840.
So the short of it is that I am still here in London, and if anyone else is
looking for me, aside from Alex, please feel free to contact me. On to
lawyers.
Along with Irish medical people, artists, and merchants, lawyers
were a group that I have planned to look at. Oddly enough, lawyers have
been the most difficult to root out in any systematic fashion. Part of
the difficulty that I have found, is that little has been written about
law from the perspective of historiography. Of the little that does exist,
the majority of it tends to focus on the late medieval and early modern
periods. So from the start, background information is difficult to come
by. (The exception to this I must say Kenny's wonderful book on the
King's Inn, Dublin- Kenny, Colum, King's Inn and the Kingdom of Ireland:
the Irish Inns of Court 1541-1800, Irish Academic Press (1992).)
The primary sources too, are not the easiest to work with. Of some use
are the Admission Registers of the four London Inns of Court, from which
Irish individuals can be identified. But it is nearly impossible to
systematically trace them past their time at the Inns. The obvious source to
follow them, after the Inns, would be the Law Lists, but these are very
general and do not provide enough information to positively identify
individuals.
What is interesting from the point of migration, is that from the middle
of the 16th century, until the late 19th century, anyone who wished to be
called to the bar in Ireland, had to spend two years of their "studies"
at one of the Inns of Court in London. After doing this they could return
to King's Inn in Dublin and finish terms, or go straight to the bar. This
was of course to maintain some sort of control over Irish law, and
presumably to insure that it conformed to English law. More importantly
to migration, it kept a large body of Irish legal students in
London. For example, between 1750-1839, over 4,000 Irish students were admitted to
the London Inns. So, in a sense, until the last quarter of the 19th cent,
all Irish in law were forced to migrate, at least temporarily. As I have
stated, it is difficult to ascertain how many of these Irish stayed on in
London or went to other parts of Britain. Of course, legal education was
not only for those who wanted to practice law, but was also an important
component in a gentleman's education, and for a minority, an useful
background for a future career in parliament (Ed Burke, Dan O'Connell to
name but a few examples). For others, it offered exposure to the social,
economic, and poltical circles of London, as well as a more general,
cosmopolitan exposure. But my feeling is that the majority of the Irish
who came to the London Inns, returned to Ireland. I dont have the exact
reference at the moment, but the Irish Manuscripts Commission has
published a list of those who were admitted to King's Inn, and this does
state if the person was admitted a barrister to the Inn. It does seem
that a large number were admitted barristers, thus suggesting a large
number did return to Ireland.
I do have more information on legal Irish in London, but at the moment,
I probably have more questions than answers. If anyone would
like to discuss this further, please feel free to contact me, I would be
happy to share whatever information I have on the subject.

Craig Bailey
email-cbailey[at]sas.ac.uk
Institute of Historical Research
University of London

From Patrick O'Sullivan

The debate about the effects of immigration on the employment rates and wages of 'native'
workers rumbles along, and of course often impinges directly on to Irish Diaspora Studies.

Our attention has been directed towards a recent paper in the Economic Journal - Ortega,
Javier, (2000), 'Pareto-improving immigration in an economy with equilibrium
unemployment', Economic Journal, January, pages 1-21.

Basically, Ortega's argument is that immigration actually INCREASES employment rates and
wages - because the availability of labour encourages investment.

A version of Ortega's paper can be found at

http://swopec.hhs.se/iiessp/abs/iiessp0618.htm

The full text can be downloaded as an Adobe Acrobat pdf file or PKZipped PostScript file.
In English.

Well, sort of English... The paper is heavy going, for those not used to the ways of
economic analysis. But it does place the discussion within the wider economics
literature.

I have pasted in below, the abstract of Ortega's paper.

P.O'S.


Swedish Working Papers on Economics

Institute for International Economic Studies
Stockholm University
Seminar Papers

http://swopec.hhs.se/iiessp/abs/iiessp0618.htm

No 618: How (Good) Immigration is: a matching analysis
Javier Ortega (ortega[at]gremaq.univ-tlse1.fr)
Abstract: We present a dynamic two-country labour matching economy. Workers decide whether
to search in their native country (paying a small cost) or to look for a job abroad
(bearing an additional cost). Firms choose the number of vacancies they post in each
country according to the average workers' characteristics inside it. Wages are determined
in an individual Nash bargaining. We show the existence of multiple steady-state
equilibria : a no-migration equilibrium and two migration equilibria. The multiplicity of
equilibria comes from a self-fulfilling prophecy phenomenon linking average wages and
incentives to migration. The equilibria are Pareto-ranked, with migration-equilibria
dominating no-migration.

Keywords: immmigration; migration; labour; Nash bargaining; multiple steady-state
equilibria; Pareto efficiency; (follow links to similar papers)

JEL-Codes: F22; J61; (follow links to similar papers)

30 pages, October 30, 1997


- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Irish-Diaspora list
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Interdisciplinary Human Studies
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England

From Patrick O'Sullivan

In March, I circulated the message, below, about these scholarships.

I have now been told that applicants are advised to get their applications in as soon as
possible. But that applications will be accepted until 14 April.

P.O'S.

- -----Original Message-----
Subject: Ir-D Post Graduate Scholarships in Ireland

From Patrick O'Sullivan

Post Graduate Scholarships in Ireland

As part of the exchange agreement between Ireland and Britain, the Irish
Government is offering three postgraduate scholarships to British students.
It is expected that the candidates chosen should have obtained a First or
Upper Second Class Honours Degree and have obtained a place at an Irish
institution.

Further information and application forms are available from the Embassy of
Ireland. Completed applications should be returned no later than 31 March
2000.


To: Secretary
Scholarships Exchange Scheme
Embassy of Ireland
17 Grosvenor Place
London SW1X 7HR



- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Irish-Diaspora list
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Interdisciplinary Human Studies
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England

From Patrick O'Sullivan

Our traditional St. Patrick's Day Competition is now closed. And the Assessment Committee
is in session. Below I have pasted in the very last Competition entry to reach us - it's
from Brian McGinn...

P.O'S.


>>Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:08:55 -0500
>>From: Brian McGinn
>>To: comp[at]osullivan.britishlibrary.net
>>Subject: If It's Not too Late...?
>>
UNLIKELY IRISH MONUMENT

I think it was economics rather than environmentalism that
led the developers to spare the old growth woods amongst
which our Northern Virginia house now stands. The ground
was just too hilly, and the trees too numerous, for the
bulldozers to clear and level at an acceptable price.
Thanks to this native intractability, I now nominate the
Ash tree whose branches straddle the property line just
behind the house as our very own Unlikely Irish Monument.

With the great Irish Oak forests gone to bog?or was it to
build the British Navy, as some suggest?the Ash, it seems
to be, is now the quintessential Irish tree. (Whatever
about the "old counterey", I don't think we'd know a "bonny
rowen tree" here in Northern Virginia if it fell on us).
And, in keeping with the inflated values of a Celtic Tiger
economy, Ash has outstripped Brazilwood and Mahogany as the
most expensive hardwood in the world. In the long run,
economics may also dictate a seachange in the most Gaelic
of Gaelic games: the substitution of a synthetic
carbon-fiber hurley for the familiar Ash camán. But for
now, Irish Ash retains its hurling monopoly. And there's no
threat from American imports. Our frosty winters leave the
grain too tight to make a hurley that would survive one
good puck.

The category here is Laziness, Paddy, as I have to lean
forward slightly and look around the computer monitor to
see our Ash from my study's window. It's clearly visible,
however, from the living room. When Michael was small, we
could keep an eye on him and his playmates as they created
and destroyed imaginary worlds in the sandbox I built in
the shade of its summer canopy. When my visiting Mayo
mother-in-law--who had ten times more experience in this
child-rearing business--pointed out some leafless
overhanging limbs, we had the old Ash tree promptly
deadwooded. For fear, as Mai put it, that a falling branch
might hurt one of "the Childer."

As Michael outgrew his sandbox, tree trimming moved far
down our list of budget priorities. Last winter, we were
forcefully reminded of the past decade's neglect. We awoke
to find a big limb from our Ash lying astride our
neighbor's privacy fence, with its business end literally
two inches from the glass of their bedroom's picture
window. They were good sports, under the circumstances.
"People who live in woods shouldn't?..", said Tammy,
consolingly. "Don't worry about the fence", said Tim, "we
were planning to replace it anyway." In the ultimate
neighborly gesture, Tim (who is not Irish) volunteered to
carry the heavy limb from his property and helped me reduce
it to fireplace lengths.

There were other suspects overhanging Tim and Tammy's
house. We rang Bartlett's Tree Service, whose estimator
explained the high price of deadwooding. Our Ash has two
main trunks, radiating from a base just a few feet from
ground level. Each trunk, in turn, promptly splits into two
and three auxiliary trunks. It was equivalent to working on
five separate trees: his 'climbers' would have to scale
each trunk separately. And more bad news: because our Ash
has such a low center of gravity, it really should be
'cabled.' This, he explained, involved anchoring the
lighter arteries overhanging the neighbors' house to a
sturdier trunk on our side of the property. This could help
prevent a really catastrophic split in the base during the
inevitable winter ice storm or summer tornado (yes,
Virginia gets them, too).

The project took on the trappings of a military operation.
The 'climbers' came with trucks, chippers drills and saws.
The Ash soon resembled the rigging of a sailing ship, with
miles of multicolored rope dangling from the branches and
'climbers' maneuvering overhead like tars on a yardarm.
Chain saws were hoisted up, and severed limbs lowered. A
gigantic drill, its bit as long as a gun barrel, punched
holes through the trunks thirty feet up from the ground.
Stainless steel pins were hammered home in the holes, and
heavy-duty steel cables fastened and strung between
opposing anchoring points.

The cables are almost invisible, blending with the sky. But
sometimes I wonder whether all this was really necessary.
Maybe it was all an expensive and ultimately futile
gesture. More for the neighbors than from necessity. Still,
when the wind whips through the branches at night, I have
no regrets. Now I can relax to the clash of our Ash.
Without fearing the crash of their glass.

Someone should patent the Ash-Guard.

__________
Brian McGinn
Alexandria, Virginia
bmcginn[at]clark.net

From: Kevin Kenny
Subject: Domestic servants


The recent exchange on Ir-D initiated by Tom Archdeacon's
inquiry on Irish domestic servants in Britain compared to
those in America has highlighted important differences in
source material, historiogrpahy, and basic approach. For
reasons to do mainly with sources and methodology,
Irish-American domestic servants have emerged, as Patrick
O'Sullivan put it in his summing up, as 'icons' of
feminism.

In Hasia Diner's familiar terms, these Irish-American
domestics were independent, entrepeneurial, and upwardly
mobile, casting off the shackles Irish rural patriarchy and
embracing new-found opporunity in the United States. Irish
servants in Britain, by comparison, to the extent that they
have been studied at all, present a much gloomier picture.

While paucity of evidence seems to be the most important
consideration here, Patrick is also correct to emphasize
differences in methodology and approach. At least two
well-known historians of the American Irish, Diner and
Janet Nolan, have asked questions based on types of
evidence that may well exist in Britain but have yet to be
fully exploited. So there may well be room for historians
of Britain to follow the Americanist lead here.

That said, I can think of one good reason why the
Americanist lead has yet to be followed by historians of
the Irish in Britain, or indeed by Europeanist historians
more generally. And that is that domestic service, by
definition, is a rather unlikely venue for social
liberation, whether feminist or otherwise.

As a labor historian, my basic approach to an institution
like domestic service is to examine the manner in which
labor was organized and exploited. At the heart of domestic
service is a specific labor relation between mistress and
servant.

While young Irish women undoubtedly did throw off
the shackles of Irish rural patriarchy in moving to
America, we should not be deceived into thinking that
casting off dependence in Ireland led to _independence_ in
America. Surely it would be better to think in terms of
moving from one form of dependence and social control to
another.

Although I am familiar only with the Americanist
literature, I am told by Europeanist colleagues in labor
and women's history that that Europeanists have generally
painted a much less rosy picture of domestic service than
the Irish-American one we've been discussing. As well as
the direct question of the labor relation with their
mistress, for example, servants in some cases endured the
unwanted sexual attentions of the mistresses' husbands and
sons.

As a historian of the Irish migration, what I wonder about
is what it was really like for a 'Bridget' to live as a
servant in an upper-middle class home, a figure of
affection but also of fun and condescension, and perhaps
too a sexualized (and racialized) object.

My colleague Ruth-Ann Harris, who disagress with most
things I have to say on this [hi, Ruth Ann :)], reminds me
that servants in the many letters she has read almost
uniformly comment upon their service in favorable terms.

I can concede the point that many young Irish-American
servants in New York or Boston were manifestly better off
in material and personal terms than they would have been
had they stayed in Ireland. But they were still servants,
at a time when (for cultural or demographic reasons) most
all other American women, native-born and foreign, avoided
service as beneath their dignity.

Irish-American women, for reasons particular to the history
of Ireland and Irish-America, may have regarded service as
a form of opportunity rather than a source of stigma. But
we should hardly confuse that perception with women's
liberation.

Service, in my reading at least, was a more oppressive
institution than Irish-Americanists have conceded. To the
extent that Europeanists emphasize the oppressive nature of
service they necessarily depart from the Irish-Americanists
on this matter.

----------------------
Kevin Kenny
Department of History, Boston College
140 Commonwealth Avenue, Chestnut Hill, MA 02467
Phone(617)552-1196; Fax(617)552-3714; kennyka[at]bc.edu
www2.bc.edu/~kennyka/

From Patrick O'Sullivan

Some person or organisation has been collecting the email addresses of people who are
interested in Irish Studies, Irish Diaspora Studies, and Irish politics generally. That
person or organisation is now distributing intrusive emails. I make no comment on the
content of these emails - usually what is offered is an 'oppression tourism' approach to
problems within Northern Ireland.

But these intrusive emails are, indirectly, an attack on scholarly networks like the
Irish-Diaspora list.

For clarification...

1.
The email addresses of Ir-D members who send messages to the Irish-Diaspora list are NOT
displayed in the Ir-D message Header - email addresses are given as the first line of the
actual text of the distributed Ir-D message. The email addresses of Ir-D members CANNOT,
therefore, be picked up by automatic email address collecting software systems.

We made the decision some time ago to NOT display the names and email addresses of IR-D
list members in the Ir-D Header - partly for that very reason.

2.
Some times, if an Ir-D list member posts a really interesting message to the
Irish-Diaspora list, another Ir-D list member might pick it up, and distribute it
further - to his or her students, for example. So there is there a possible route through
which your email address might be distributed further, and MIGHT become available to the
collectors.

The solution is NOT for us to start writing really boring messages. And I think that Ir-D
list members would still like to see the email addresses of other Ir-D list members - for
that leads to informal discussion and support 'off-list'.

So - if you do forward a message from the Ir-D list to another person or network - can we
ask you to simply DELETE the email address of the original sender.

3.
Do please continue to send me examples of these intrusive emails - with the original
Header material intact. We can then see patterns, and maybe locate culprits. Send these
messages to me personally at
Patrick O'Sullivan
NOT to the Irish-Diaspora list email address.

By the same token, I do not think there is any point in our distributing expressions of
outrage through the Irish-Diaspora list.

4.
The Irish-Diaspora list is a moderated list - a quite fiercely moderated list. We are
quite used to acting as a 'firewall' here, protecting the Ir-D list and our members from
attack and intrusion. The intrusion represented by these intrusive emails come by a
different route - we do take this seriously. Especially given the fact that some of the
email addresses so misused are NOT in the public domain.

However, from what I have seen already, I have no impression that Ir-D list email
addresses have been systematically harvested - rather it would seem that a few email
addresses have fallen into the collectors' nets. And, for what it's worth, I have no
impression of malevolence here - rather of over-active naivety.

Paddy O'Sullivan

- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Irish-Diaspora list
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Interdisciplinary Human Studies
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England

From: Hilary Robinson
Subject: Re: Ir-D Intrusive emails

Paddy, for what it's worth, I think that you are right about addressess not
being systematically taken from the list - I've not received any such
emails myself. Your strategy is excellent. keep up the good work!
best,
hilary

>>From Patrick O'Sullivan
>
>Some person or organisation has been collecting the email addresses of
>people who are
>interested in Irish Studies, Irish Diaspora Studies, and Irish politics
>generally. That
>person or organisation is now distributing intrusive emails. I make no
>comment on the
>content of these emails - usually what is offered is an 'oppression
>tourism' approach to
>problems within Northern Ireland.
>
>But these intrusive emails are, indirectly, an attack on scholarly
>networks like the
>Irish-Diaspora list.
>
>For clarification...
>
>1.
>The email addresses of Ir-D members who send messages to the
>Irish-Diaspora list are NOT
>displayed in the Ir-D message Header - email addresses are given as the
>first line of the
>actual text of the distributed Ir-D message. The email addresses of Ir-D
>members CANNOT,
>therefore, be picked up by automatic email address collecting software
>systems.
>
>We made the decision some time ago to NOT display the names and email
>addresses of IR-D
>list members in the Ir-D Header - partly for that very reason.
>
>2.
>Some times, if an Ir-D list member posts a really interesting message to the
>Irish-Diaspora list, another Ir-D list member might pick it up, and
>distribute it
>further - to his or her students, for example. So there is there a
>possible route through
>which your email address might be distributed further, and MIGHT become
>available to the
>collectors.
>
>The solution is NOT for us to start writing really boring messages. And I
>think that Ir-D
>list members would still like to see the email addresses of other Ir-D
>list members - for
>that leads to informal discussion and support 'off-list'.
>
>So - if you do forward a message from the Ir-D list to another person or
>network - can we
>ask you to simply DELETE the email address of the original sender.
>
>3.
>Do please continue to send me examples of these intrusive emails - with
>the original
>Header material intact. We can then see patterns, and maybe locate
>culprits. Send these
>messages to me personally at
>Patrick O'Sullivan
>NOT to the Irish-Diaspora list email address.
>
>By the same token, I do not think there is any point in our distributing
>expressions of
>outrage through the Irish-Diaspora list.
>
>4.
>The Irish-Diaspora list is a moderated list - a quite fiercely moderated
>list. We are
>quite used to acting as a 'firewall' here, protecting the Ir-D list and
>our members from
>attack and intrusion. The intrusion represented by these intrusive emails
>come by a
>different route - we do take this seriously. Especially given the fact
>that some of the
>email addresses so misused are NOT in the public domain.
>
>However, from what I have seen already, I have no impression that Ir-D
>list email
>addresses have been systematically harvested - rather it would seem that a
>few email
>addresses have fallen into the collectors' nets. And, for what it's
>worth, I have no
>impression of malevolence here - rather of over-active naivety.
>
>Paddy O'Sullivan
>
>--
>Patrick O'Sullivan
>Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit
>Email Patrick O'Sullivan
>Irish-Diaspora list
>Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/
>
>Irish Diaspora Research Unit
>Department of Interdisciplinary Human Studies
>University of Bradford
>Bradford BD7 1DP
>Yorkshire
>England


_______________________________

Dr. Hilary Robinson
School of Art and Design
University of Ulster at Belfast
York Street
Belfast BT15 1ED
Northern Ireland


direct phone/fax: (+44) 01232.267291)

From: "Ruth-Ann M. Harris"
Subject: Re: Ir-D Domestic servants

Adding to the recent exchange -- and since my name was invoked [hi Kevin]
I'd like to comment further on what female domestics say in their
letters: Women's letters often reflect a comparison between their
conditions in Ireland and their experiences in America, so that does
qualify a little what letters demonstrate. Keep in mind too that we have
far too few letters from female domestics to make any kind of broad
judgements. Kerby Miller used a letter from a Catherine Ann McFarland to
illustrate women's dissatisfaction with domestic work but I think that one
has to be qualified by her circumstances. In her letter she refers to
having had her own kitchen at one time [she appears to have been widowed
after emigrating] and was reduced to being a domestic. All others that I
have read feel they have come up in the world from conditions in
Ireland. More typical has been a comment from a Margaret McCarthy from
Kingwilliamstown, Co. Cork, who wrote in 1851:
"I must only that this [is] a good place and a good Country for if one
place does not suit and a good Country for if one place does not suit a Man
he can go to Another and can very easy please himself. "
This letter was being written to her father to encourage the whole family
to take advantage of assisted emigration; thus she says "does not suit a
Man". Her own experience of one year in America was to have moved a few
times and considering another move.
Women often mention that the newspapers are full of advertisements
seeking domestic help. A Mary Harlon from Co. Louth says that there is/was
no need to remain in a place where your services were not
appreciated. Irish men would express their annoyance that Irish women
got their jobs too easily.
All of this is not to paint too rosy a picture of life in service
but I sometimes think that it is tempting to blur our own feelings about
personal service with what it may have been like for people in the
past. Mary Anderson's letters [she brought her servant, Margaret, with
her from Ireland] notes with dismay Margaret's increasing independence as
she became aware of the conditions of other servants in America. Mary A.
says that many people [of her class, obviously] chose to live in hotels
because they could not get help.
Just some random thought -- hope they produce discussion, not a
firestorm.
Ruth-Ann Harris



Ruth-Ann M. Harris, Adjunct Prof of History and Irish Studies, Boston College
Note new e-mail address: harrisrd[at]bc.edu
Home Phone: (617)522-4361; FAX:(617)983-0328; Office Phone:(617)552-1571
Summer and Weekend Number: (Phone) (603) 938-2660

Forwarded from the Irish-Studies list...

RE: Irish Rail Workers Monument


Greg Koos, Director of the McLean County Museum of History in Bloomington, Illinois, has
asked me to forward this message to Irish Studies List members.

Bill Williams

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



Monument honors fallen Irish-American workers

Amtrack trains will whistle a salute April 28 to a forgotten band of
Irish laborers who "died with their hammers in the hands" almost 150
years ago.

In the Funk's Grove, Illinois cemetery are two mass graves of Irish
rail workers from the 1850s. At 3:30 p.m. on April 28 a six foot Celtic
cross will be dedicated, marking two large plots in the cemetery where
over 50 workers are buried in a mass grave. The graves have never been
marked. All Amtrak trains nationally will whistle a salute at 4:30
p.m. (CST), as the ceremony is taking place.

In 1852-53 the Alton and Sangamon Railroad (today the Union
Pacific/Amtrak line) was building from Springfield to Bloomington.
Illinois was busy with railroad construction, chiefly using immigrant
Irish laborers who were potato famine refugees.

Death and accidents from poor working and sanitary conditions were
common in these construction camps. Cholera was pandemic. Contemporary
reports note hundreds of workers dying from work camp epidemics.
Although the exact circumstances of the Funk's Grove deaths are unclear,
this situation is unique because these workers were buried in a
cemetery, and not in forgotten track side graves. Local oral tradition
and cemetery records marked their burial, though not the individual's
names. The cemetery records simply note "Irish workers" over two large
plots.

Central Illinois Irish-Americans and labor unions, led by the McLean
County Historical Society, raised over $12,500 to erect the Celtic cross
at the grave site. April 28 the AFL-CIO nationally marks as "Workers
Memorial Day," honoring worksite accident and fatality victims.
Ceremonies commence in the cemetery chapel with special guests Terence
M. O'Sullivan, Laborers International Union of North America president,
and Margaret Blackshere, Illinois AFL- CIO president. Irish Piper Kevin
Henry will present a brief program of Irish traditional music preceding
the ceremony at 3:30 p.m.. Following music and brief chapel remarks, a
procession to the grave site will follow for the monument dedication.

After the monument dedication, the Illinois Labor History Society is
sponsoring a dinner and reception at the McLean County Museum of
History, 200 N. Main Street, Bloomington.

The Funk's Grove Cemetery is located in the tiny village of Funk's
Grove, 12 miles south of Bloomington, along old U.S. 66. The nearest
exits from Interstate 55 are at Shirley to the north and McLean to the
south. Follow the brown signs marking old "U.S. 66," which parallels
I-55. There is one entrance into Funk's Grove, west of old 66. After
entering the small town, go left at the first "Y." It is approximately
two miles to the cemetery and chapel in the grove of maple trees.

For more information contact Greg Koos at the McLean County Museum of
History, (309) 827-0428, or Mike Matejka, Laborers International Union
Local 362, (309) 827-3934. For Amtrack information call Norene Ellis
(312) 655-1310

From: Cymru66[at]aol.com
Subject: Re: Ir-D Intrusive emails


Paddy,
If it's any comfort I can say that no intrusive emails which could be
traced to the IR-D list have reached me here in the mid-west. However, the
internet is 'leaky', as you know, and I've had some bad experiences,
including theft of my credit card number. So, more power to your elbow in
keeping-up the fire walls. Much appreciated.
John Hickey

From
Jim McCool,
Chief Developer, Irish In Britain.net
jim[at]irishinbritain.co.uk

Subject: www.irishinbritain.net
To: Irish Diaspora Research Unit, University of Bradford

We've picked your web site
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/
to go in our top Irish in Britain sites section as
we consider it an important community information resource:
[see your listing at:
http://www.irishinbritain.net/html/best_inb_sites.htm].

You might want to let Irish-Diaspora list members know that you
can post information on courses, news, etc on our revamped forum and
noticeboard which is now more accessible and easier to use. And we can also
include community news in our free newsletter - which is being sent out to
our mailng list members regularly - you can enrol for the newsletter
directly from the site. http://www.irishinbritain.net.
Send community news items to: news[at]irishinbritain.co.uk

Thank you,
Jim McCool,
Chief Developer, Irish In Britain.net
jim[at]irishinbritain.co.uk

From:
Linda Dowling Almeida
"Almeida, Ed (Exchange)"
Subject: Hunger Strikes

To All:
I have an undergraduate student interested in researching the Hunger
Strikes. Can anyone suggest one or two good comprehensive books that would
give her the facts, chronology and significance of the strikes?
Thanks.
Linda Dowling Almeida
New York University

From: "noel gilzean"
Subject: Re: Ir-D Intrusive emails

I have recieved no intrusive e-mails either at my present address or
previous address.

I have received the following message which might be of
interest to the list. The actual mailing addresses show the weird and
wonderful way mailing lists can be constructed.
Noel
From: Jim McCool
Sent: Tuesday, April 4, 2000 12:10
To: The Journal; LAPD; Radio Leicester; liam; LION; St. Pats mailing list;
St Pats mailing list; steve at Internet mag; .net mag; Hartlepool Mail;
Financial Mail; stuart mitchell; steve charity net; metro news; Northsound
1; Northsound 2; Guardian Online; Southwark Irish Pensioners
Subject: www.irishinbritain.net



*********************************************************
NEW RESOURCE FOR THE IRISH IN BRITAIN
*********************************************************
http://www.irishinbritain.net



For the Irish Community in Britain,

You can post information on community services, events, courses, news, etc
on our revamped forum and noticeboard which is now more accessible and
easier to
use.

We can also include community news items in our free newsletter - which is
being sent out to our mailng list members regularly - you can enrol for the
newsletter directly from the site at http://www.irishinbritain.net.
Send community news items to: news[at]irishinbritain.co.uk

Main site now contains: Community Directory, Top Irish in Britain sites,
News, Sport,
Music, Jobs, and much, much more....
Go to: http://www.irishinbritain.net


Feedback: Please send us your ideas on how irishinbritain.net could be made
even better: ideas[at]irishinbritain.co.uk


Please forward this message to everybody in your address book who might be
interested in this resource for the Irish in Britain.


Jim McCool, Web Manager for irishinbritain.net
jim[at]irishinbritain.co.uk
www.irishinbritain.net


Noel Gilzean
rosslare51[at]hotmail.com
University of Huddersfield UK
http://www.hud.ac.uk/hip

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From Patrick O'Sullivan

I do not want to be unduly mysterious about this intrusive emails business.

Briefly...

A very valued member of the Irish-Diaspora list had got into the habit of sharing really
interesting Ir-D messages with his student email network. A former student, who was still
part of that email network, had been collecting email addresses for commercial purposes.
As soon as the pattern was noticed, the matter was dealt with. A sad business, involving,
as it does, a mis-use of trust.

Those of you who DID get intrusive emails - take comfort from this evidence that your
colleague thought your messages really interesting. The rest of us will just have to try
harder.

As John Hickey has already observed, the Internet is 'leaky' - and some of this sort of
thing is most probably inevitable, at least for those of us who have made our email
addresses generally available. But throughout the world there are moves towards
'anti-spam' legislation. Here we take seriously our obligations to the members of the
Irish-Diaspora list, and when we can act we do.

P.O'S.

- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Irish-Diaspora list
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Interdisciplinary Human Studies
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England