From Patrick O'Sullivan

Congratulations to the University of Northumbria, which has secured the services of our
very own Donald MacRaild as its new Head of History. And best wishes to Don, as he makes
this career move.

Close readers of text will have noted that, in a recent Ir-D message, Don MacRaild's email
address had already changed.

Don assures us that, in his new post, at his new University, his history will remain, as
ever, Irish Diaspora friendly...

Patrick O'Sullivan


- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit

Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Email Patrick O'Sullivan

Irish-Diaspora list
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/

Personal Fax National 0870 284 1580
Fax International +44 870 284 1580

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Interdisciplinary Human Studies
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England

From Patrick O'Sullivan

Congratulations to the Open University, which has secured the services of our very own
Lynda Prescott. Lynda will be leaving Bradford at the end of the month, to take up an
Open University development and research post in the English midlands.

Our sincere thanks to Lynda for her help with the Irish-Diaspora list over the years. And
our best wishes for the future.

Selfishly, I have to note that Lynda's departure does create problems for the
Irish-Diaspora list - for it does diminish, even further, the (never very great) pool of
people we can call on here in Bradford to help with the day-to-day management of the Ir-D
list. Russell Murray and I have been talking about this, and thinking about different
approaches...

Patrick O'Sullivan


- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit

Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Email Patrick O'Sullivan

Irish-Diaspora list
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/

Personal Fax National 0870 284 1580
Fax International +44 870 284 1580

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Interdisciplinary Human Studies
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England

From: don.macraild[at]unn.ac.uk
Subject: RE: Ir-D Accent 4

I wonder, is the Scots 'burr' of the same import as the Irish 'brogue'?
Burr, if my memory serves me correctly, is the downy bit of a Thistle.

Don MacRaild
Northumbria!!!


> -----Original Message-----
> From: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk [SMTP:irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 9:00 AM
> To: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
> Subject: Ir-D Accent 4
>
>
> From: "Bruce Stewart"
> Subject: Re: Ir-D Accent 2
>
> That sounds improbable and convoluted, if amusingly turned. More
> likely, since a 'brog' is a shoe in Irish and Irish shoes in the 17th c.
> were noted by colonists for their uncouth appearance, the part
> served for the whole (litotes). An added factor is the comparatively
> rhotive character of the Irish accent as it strikes the English ear.
> What is true of Irish is broadly true of Scottish speakers. The
> modern brogue is a country shoe sported by English gentlemen in
> emulation of their gillies - from whom, incidentally, they received
> the useful word 'smashing', orig. as 'is maith sin'. Brogue still
> seems a reasonable description of the general features of an
> Hiberno-English accent though, like all such terms, it cannot be
> freely used in view of stereotypical associations. The challenge for
> the phonologist is to say in what way ALL Irish speakers differ from
> ALL English speakers. The sum of that equation is the Brogue.
> Bruce.
>
>
> Subject: Ir-D Accent 2
> Date sent: Tue 12 Sep 2000 14:00:00 +0000
> From: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
> Send reply to: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
> To: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
>
>
> From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Dymphna=20Lonergan?=
> Subject: Re: Ir-D Accent
>
>
> Alex Peach mentioned his mother's 'brogue' which of
> course is another word for 'accent'. Originally
> applied to both Scots and Irish it became, I think,
> exclusively applied to an Irish accent. Does any other
> ethnic group have a single word that defines its
> speech patterns? As for the origin of 'brogue' (to
> digress) I'm now inclined to favour the'speech
> impediment' definition and I think it may have been
> the Irish deriding those who spoke English - not for
> how they spoke it, but that they spoke such an
> inferior language! eg Biarla 'English' but biarlagair
> 'slang'
>
> Dymphna Lonergan
> The Flinders University of South Australia
> Dymphna_1[at]Yahoo.com
>
>

From: "alex peach"

In response to John Hickey?s concerns over the feasibility of the term
?racism? when applied to the Irish, I have a few comments. The whole issue
of definition surrounding concept of ?race? is very slippery (I attempt some
jargon laden definitions at the foot of this post). This is linked to its
irrationality as an abstraction for categorising humanity. The term
originated from an historical process attempting to link the soul to the
body that arose in 18th century at a time when anthropology also appeared -
itself attempting to find an empirical observational method to place man
within nature. Subjective variations in physical appearance were taken as
indicators of mental psychological and cultural differences and the whole
issue took on a new resonance with the rise of Social Darwinism at the end of
the nineteenth century.

In regard to the Irish, it is a term that certainly needs careful thought
before it is utilised. In answer to John?s question on more precise
conceptual tools, ethnicity, ethnic difference, and ethnic prejudice are far
more useful when dealing with general intolerance and bigotry between ethnic
groups - but if this discrimination takes on an overtly racial character
then the racist term is correct. Curtis, L., Nothing But the Same Old Story,
Information on Ireland, London, 1984; Curtis, L. P., Anglo-Saxons and Celts
: A Study of Anti-Irish Prejudice in Victorian England, New York University
Press, New York, 1968; Mary J. Hickman and Bronwen Walter, Discrimination
and the Irish community in Britain : a report of research undertaken for the
Commission for Racial Equality, CRE, London 1997, deal with some of the
issues. It must be said that there is plenty of evidence of that the Irish
have been racialised as a group. See The Raced Celt web site at
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~dnp5c/Victorian/index.html.

I think the problem is that racism and ?race? have become axiomatically
linked to the problems of the post slavery/segregation discourse in the USA.
Racism is about Black vs white in the ?common sense? use of the term. The
colour issue has dominated the understanding but as any Jew will tell you
skin colour is only one facet of racism. In my previous post on accent I
mentioned the ?common sense? notion the Irish have no phenotypical markers
such as skin colour to mark them out as different (or the ?Other? as
sociologists call them). I was attempting to move the debate away from the
colour issue as the touchstone of discrimination. Accent is a cultural
marker not a physical one so it is ethnic not racial but both are markers of
difference.

The issue of religion is very important and utilising it in Northern Ireland
would be complex and one would have to be careful. However, it is an extra
tool - if not the original - for ethnic boundary creation and maintenance
between ethnic groups. This said, if racist criteria are used to categorise
Irish Catholics - or Protestants - as different then it is also racism as
well as sectarianism. The two terms are not mutually exclusive. The close
links between racist organisations such as the British National Party and
extreme Unionist elements such as at the riot in Dublin during a Soccer
match some years ago and their appearance at the Drumcree disturbances
signify a racial discourse in operation. I posted a note on this list some
time ago about institutionalised racism in the health service in Britain
where an Irish patient was assumed to be an alcoholic without any evidence
by a certain doctor who was assessing the patient for state benefits. A
racist group specifically targeted African, Asian and Irish workers at
Heathrow recently. Also a Protestant Irish man was supported by the
Commission for Racial Equality in his case against his employers for racial
discrimination and won, showing the complexity of racist discourse, it is
very slippery but not unmanageable.

Best wishes,

Alex Peach.


Racism.

Racism is an ideology and set of concomitant practices that ascribes social
significance to phenotypical and/or genetic difference that accretes certain
actual or imagined characteristics to a group that is conceptualised as
having a common biological descent. This ideology must then be used as an
exculpation of practices that negatively engage with, denigrate or exploit
the ascribed group. This definition allows the inclusion of all bio-cultural
conceptualisations of innate group character and behaviour that have arisen
within historically specific contexts.

Racialisation.

The concept as developed by Robert Miles. The process by which a group is
ascribed status as a racial category within the significations of the racist
discourse. A mechanism where a group is bounded by the idea that it is
explainable as a social category by inherent racial "criteria" that dictate
meanings ascribed to said group. To Miles, racialisation is "a dialectical
process of signification" where definition of one group also defines the
ascribing group's identity within its own constellation of meaning that is
historically specific. (This is where the boundary between the groups is
created). What is more, the racialisation process also includes the social
processes, structures and institutions that the racialised groups
inhabit/engage with. This dialectic ascribes a connotation of significance
to the bounded group and its material relations utilising racialised
biological criteria as its primary precept. Therefore the construction of
"Otherness" by one group can include wholly imagined criteria of difference
to signify this.

- -----Original Message-----
From: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
To: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
Date: 13 September 2000 10:54
Subject: Ir-D Concerns


>
>
>From: Cymru66[at]aol.com
>Subject: Concerns
>
>Dear Paddy,
>Like Frank Neal I teach in a graduate school of Business here.
>It's been an interesting experience after 11 years in the
>Soc. and Anthrop. dept at the University of Ulster, Coleraine. One of the
>things I've learned are the practices and malpractices of marketers. So, I
>was a little concerned to see the advert for 'free' telephone calls the
other
>day. Such offers are a classic means of getting access to mailing or
emailing
>lists, particularly when such lists are of relatively affluent people who
may
>be in a position to 'spread the word'. This offer may be perfectly genuine,
>but I do not doubt it will contain a number of conditions and commitments
>from which the marketer will get sufficient profit to cover his costs and
>much more and any respondents will find themselves locked into some
long-term
>commitment to buy certain services. I think caution is indicated here.
> I am once again getting uneasy at the use of the term 'racism' when
applied
>to the Irish. When I was writing my book on Northern Ireland I investigated
>the use of a racist model, this time involving Protestants as dominant and
>Catholics as subordinate. I quickly abandoned the model, as have a number
of
>other scholars in the same field, because it does not 'fit' if by 'racist'
>we are taking the structure of relationships between African-Americans and
>'White' people here in the U.S. That there is/was prejudice and hostility
>towards Irish people living in Britain there is no doubt - who has not
>experienced it, even after 3-4 generations. But there is a strong religious
>element involved here which makes the phenomenon rather more complex than
the
>relatively straightforward hostility between white and black in the U.S.
>which is, probably correctly, called 'racism'. So, I am looking for some
>different and more precise set of concepts to help analyse the process of
>current relationships between the 'host' population of Britain and the
>Immigrant Irish. Just using 'racism' could lead us into blind alleys and
>cause us to miss very important phenomena which may be either encouraging
or
>denying integration of the Irish and their descendants.
> I leave it to you to judge whether any of the above should be circulated.
>
>Best,
>John Hickey.
>

From: DanCas1[at]aol.com
Subject: Fwd: Englishness/Whiteness-query on Thompson

Dear Patrick:

This is a further query I have received regarding the Englishness-Whiteness issue and E.P.
Thompson and the "Irish question."

I have suggested the Gronowicz book, cited in my earlier message. I also plan to rummage
around for a few more citations. Perhaps, more informed Ir-D list members may
have some suggestions for Sean Campbell?

Best Regards,

Daniel Cassidy
San Francisco


> Daniel,
>
> >One long-standing critique by some scholars of E.P. Thompson's "History of
> the English Working >Class" is his treatment of the Irish "other."
>
> I am interested in locating critiques of Thompson's treatment of the Irish,
> and would be very grateful if you could point me in the right direction re:
> references, etc.
>
> Many thanks,
> Sean Campbell.
>
> Department of Communication Studies,
> Anglia Polytechnic University.
>


- --part1_b3.863720.26f1b726_boundary

Subject: Englishness/Whiteness
Sender: Sean Campbell
To: daniel cassidy

Daniel,

>One long-standing critique by some scholars of E.P. Thompson's "History of
the English Working >Class" is his treatment of the Irish "other."

I am interested in locating critiques of Thompson's treatment of the Irish,
and would be very grateful if you could point me in the right direction re:
references, etc.

Many thanks,
Sean Campbell.

Department of Communication Studies,
Anglia Polytechnic University.

- --part1_b3.863720.26f1b726_boundary--

From Patrick O'Sullivan

Adding little in the way of clarity...

A colleague here has noted that his dictionary (Longman's) suggests that 'brogue' is from
the Gaelic 'barrog' a wrestling hold, "as in 'barrog teangan' lisp lit. hold of the
tongue."

P.O'S.

- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit

Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Email Patrick O'Sullivan

Irish-Diaspora list
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/

Personal Fax National 0870 284 1580
Fax International +44 870 284 1580

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Interdisciplinary Human Studies
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Dymphna=20Lonergan?=
Subject: Re: Ir-D Accent 4


Implausible and convoluted? Yes, I thought the same
when I read the account of the origin of brogue in The
Story of English (McCrum et al 1986) 'speaking with a
shoe on his tongue' (p. 174) however I find the same
convolution in Niall Dónaill's Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla
(1977) in his entry for
barróg: 1. Hug 2. Wrestling grip 3. Brogue, impediment
of speech

His entry for bróg has nothing else but 'shoe'

This seems to point to an earlier origin for brogue in
the Ir. word barróg


Dymphna Lonergan
The Flinders University of South Australia
Dymphna_1[at]Yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

From Patrick O'Sullivan

On 'Ethnicity'...

Ir-D list members might find helpful Martin Bulmer's Ethnicity pages

http://qb.soc.surrey.ac.uk/topics/ethnicity/ethnicintro.htm

The Web site focuses on the discussion in Britain, but makes many comparative and general
points. And there is a useful bibliography.

Of particular interest, in the light of the looming British census, next year, is this
section...

http://qb.soc.surrey.ac.uk/topics/ethnicity/ethnic_census.htm


P.O'S.

- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit

Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Email Patrick O'Sullivan

Irish-Diaspora list
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/

Personal Fax National 0870 284 1580
Fax International +44 870 284 1580

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Interdisciplinary Human Studies
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England

From Patrick O'Sullivan

Forwarded on behalf of...
"John Smith Glasgow Outdoor Experience"
Subject: Book Signing

Dear Mr O'Sullivan,
You may be interested to know that the author
Tim Pat Coogan will be here at John Smith's Bookshop at the address below on
Tuesday 19th September at 6.30pm. reading and signing copies of his new book
Wherever Green is Worn, the story of the Irish Diaspora. I know you are in
Bradford but if you know of anybody in the Glasgow area that might be
interested and could kindly E-mail me details it would be greatly
appreciated. The book costs £25.00 but will be sold on the night for
£20.00.-wine will be served.




Regards
Paul Currie

John Smith & Son
Glasgow Outdoor Experience
50 Couper St
Glasgow G4 0DL

Tel: 0141 559 5450
Fax: 0141 552 5485
email: tiso[at]johnsmith.co.uk

From Patrick O'Sullivan

Forwarded on behalf of

savager[at]bc.edu
Robert Joseph Savage, Jr.
Sent: 14 September 2000 14:18
Subject: Launch of The American Irish: A History



Friends:

On Monday at 5:00 p.m. the Irish Studies Program will host a
launch of Kevin Kenny's newest book The American Irish: A History. The
book will be launched in Connolly House by Sile de Valera, Minister for
the Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands.
All are invited to attend.

----------------------
Robert J. Savage
Associate Director
Irish Studies
Boston College
savager[at]bc.edu
(617) 552-3966

web site: www.bc.edu/irish

From: "Bruce Stewart"
Subject: Re: Ir-D Accent 8

0100,0100,0100Times New RomanTwo
agin one and good scholarship to boot, so I withdraw my
common-parlance interpretation of the Irish shoe. If Niall Dónaill
is correct, the implication is that the 'brogue' was first so-called
by its Irish users not by its English auditors. That's to say, they
characterised the difficulty posed by unfamiliar English
0100,0100,0100phonetics
as an 'impediment' and spoke of it as such with native-English
speakers - who took the 'barróg' and ran with it, so to speak.


As Americans and Irish people generally know, one of the
oddest things about of a colonised country is the persistence of
the native-language place-names (Chicago, Massechussets, and
so on). This may be a manifestation of the same phenomenon on
a different plane. Isn't 'phoney' allegedly derived from 'fáinne',
signifying the 'ring trick' practiced by Irish migrants to London in
Tudor times? That is a less amiable form of expropriation.


Bruce.


From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Dymphna=20Lonergan?=

Subject: Re: Ir-D Accent 4



Implausible and convoluted? Yes, I thought the same

when I read the account of the origin of brogue in The

Story of English (McCrum et al 1986) 'speaking with a

shoe on his tongue' (p. 174) however I find the same

convolution in Niall Dónaill's Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla

(1977) in his entry for

barróg: 1. Hug 2. Wrestling grip 3. Brogue, impediment

of speech


His entry for bróg has nothing else but 'shoe'


This seems to point to an earlier origin for brogue in

the Ir. word barróg



Dymphna Lonergan

The Flinders University of South Australia

Dymphna_1[at]Yahoo.com


bsg.stewart[at]ulst.ac.uk
Languages & Lit/English
University of Ulster
tel (44) 01265 32 4355
fax (44) 01265 32 4963

From: "Bruce Stewart"
Subject: Re: Ir-D Accent 3
Priority: normal

Chilly message! And true. On name changes, the Stauntons in my
maternal line changed their name to MacOllave (Mac Ollaimh) as
an expression of their dissatisfaction at the intolerance of the
Reformed State to the Old English in the early seventeenth-
century, but changed back to Staunton and added a spurious de
Lacy some time after the 1642 Rebellion. Bruce.

Subject: Ir-
D Accent 3
Date sent: Tue 12 Sep 2000 14:00:00 +0000
From: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
Send reply to: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
To: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk


From: "Anthony McNicholas"
Subject: RE: Ir-D Accent

A dire warning from 1864 from a London-Irish nationalist paper to those who
change to make themselves accepted,

"They change their names, or mispronounce them; they copy English habits
into their households; their conversation abounds with Cockney
namby-pambyisms..." By this method "you obtain the credit of being polite
and undemonstrative. You are at once singled out from the 'ruck' as an Irish
gentleman whose political notions are far from being vulgar and whose
admiration for British institutions entitles him to universal respect."
Universal News 15/10/1864 p9

For these 'composite Irishmen', the paper warned, awaited a fate worse than
that which befell the bat, which was decreed neither bird nor beast.

And from the 1960s-a schoolfriend,(no, he was just in the same class, we
loathed each other actually)whose family was Polish, changed their name on
arrival in England, from the original Skepski. Being educated people, they
didn't fancy something plain like Smith or Brown, but chose a name which I
suppose they thought would have a ring to it to English ears, something
Anglo-Saxon. Unfortunately they chose Eggert for a handle and he was plagued
with terrible jokes about being boiled, fried, poached etc., and his
children, if he has any, probably still are. Unless, of course, he has
reverted to the Polish.

Anthony McNicholas

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
[mailto:owner-irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
Sent: 12 September 2000 07:48
To: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
Subject: Ir-D Accent



From: "alex peach"
Subject: Re: Ir-D Branagh, Beginning

The whole issue of accent is interesting to me as it is almost a given
within post-war British ethnic studies that the Irish have no phenotypical
markers such as skin colour to readily identify them as outsiders. This of
course is true in a physical sense, (although we could perhaps point to
anti-redhead discourses that would include other nationalities) but as soon
as an Irish migrant opened their mouth to engage with the host community
their outsider status would be immediately signalled. My own mother lost her
accent as soon as she could when she moved to the British Midlands in the
1950s (she still swears with a broad brogue when she is angry mind you!)
This subterfuge/strategy was utilised due to anti-Irish prejudice. Names
have also been changed as they too can function as cultural/ethnic markers.
But one thing the Irish can do is "pass" for native using this form of
ethnic suicide, leading to complex issues of hybrid identities. In this
sense the post-modernists are onto something. "Which hat are you wearing
today?" is a legitimate question to ask Irish migrants to English speaking
countries.

Best wishes,

Alex Peach.

- -----Original Message-----
From: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
To: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
Date: 11 September 2000 11:12
Subject: Ir-D Branagh, Beginning


>
>From Patrick O'Sullivan
>
>Those interested in the autobiographies of the Irish in Britain will find
at least a
>footnote's worth of interest - and probably more - in an entertaining
volume, Kenneth
>Branagh, Beginning, Chatto & Windus, London, 1989. Which I found in a
secondhand book
>shop... A good read, made me laugh...
>
>Branagh, a very fine and ambitious actor, who uses commercial ventures to
subsidise his
>other work, wrote the autobiography to secure funds to pay for his theatre
company's
>offices. But he is, in any case, entitled to a little arrogance.
>
>Most autobiographies are written by deluded old men to confuse historians -
so that this
>autobiography, by a young man, recalling his not so distant childhood and
youth, is
>different. It is also an Irish Diaspora Studies volume, for Branagh
explores his family's
>move - following his father's work - from Belfast, in Northern Ireland, to
Reading, an
>industrial and commercial town to the west of London.
>
>So, it is the little Irish boy settling in England - strategies, accents...
Branagh's
>brother changed HIS accent at once... 'like having a new member of the
family...' 'The
>early 1970s were not a good time to be Irish in Reading...'
>
>Matters of accent are, of course, crucial in the acting profession,
especially in England.
>And Branagh has to be cold-bloodedly in control of the sounds that emanate
from his own
>mouth...
>
>In a recent newspaper article Branagh described an encounter with the hero,
George Best -
>who criticised Branagh's accent. And I do notice that - since this volume
was written -
>when Branagh visits Northern Ireland enough of the Belfast accent becomes
visible, becomes
>audible, to make a point...
>
>P.O'S.
>

bsg.stewart[at]ulst.ac.uk
Languages & Lit/English
University of Ulster
tel (44) 01265 32 4355
fax (44) 01265 32 4963

From: "Bronwen Walter"
Subject: Re: Ir-D Accent 5

This is really a reply to pre-brogue comments about accent! I have tried to
bring together some ideas about accent as an identifier of Irish people in
Britain in a chapter in A. Kershen (ed) Language, labour and migration,
Ashgate, 2000. The chapter is called '"Shamrocks growing out of their
mouths": language and the racialisation of the Irish in Britain' and builds
on some of the findings of the CRE report about people's experiences of
reactions to the way they spoke. Hope it's of interest.

Bronwen Walter
- ----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 9:01 AM
Subject: Ir-D Accent 5


>
>
> From: Cymru66[at]aol.com
> Subject: Re: Ir-D Accent 2
>
> For what it's worth, when an African-American friend from California was
> speaking of her experiences on a recent visit to Britain she expressed
> surprise at hearing West Indian Brits speaking in the 'brogue' i.e. a
North
> London accent.
> Do not ask me what the underlying assumptions are about what the speech
> patterns should be of 'people of colour'. As far as the Irish are
concerned,
> my experience has been that the variety of accents is dense and rich and
> highly confusing. But the same may be said of the 'English' accents
between
> and within the many regions of the U.K.
> I'm sure that this comment has been of little help. I have great respect
> for linguisticians but do not regret having chosen another discipline.
> John Hickey
>

From: Cymru66[at]aol.com
Subject: Re: Ir-D Concerns 3

I should like to thank Alex Peach for his very helpful contribution to the
use of the 'racist' concept. I don't want to take- up much more of IR-D's
time and space on this issue so I'd be very grateful if Alex could contact me
direct and give me his exact email address; I know that it appears on his
letters but it contains for me, at least, unfamiliar symbols and I'm not sure
that they are actually part of the address!
My full email address is Cymru66[at]aol.com
Thanks again, Paddy, for the service you are providing for us.
John Hickey

From: "noel gilzean"
Subject: Re: Ir-D Thanks

Hi everbody
I haven't had time to read these e-mails thoroughly yet, but I think John is
wrong to think that he needs to refrain from taking up our time. I think the
issue of racism and how the Irish experience fits into the racism paradigm
is of fundamental importance. I for one would prefer that this strand
continues on the list.
Noel


>From: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
>Reply-To: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
>To: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
>Subject: Ir-D Thanks
>Date: Fri 15 Sep 2000 07:03:00 +0000
>
>From: Cymru66[at]aol.com
>Subject: Re: Ir-D Concerns 3
>
>I should like to thank Alex Peach for his very helpful contribution to the
>use of the 'racist' concept. I don't want to take- up much more of IR-D's
>time and space on this issue so I'd be very grateful if Alex could contact
>me
>direct and give me his exact email address; I know that it appears on his
>letters but it contains for me, at least, unfamiliar symbols and I'm not
>sure
>that they are actually part of the address!
>My full email address is Cymru66[at]aol.com
>Thanks again, Paddy, for the service you are providing for us.
>John Hickey

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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http://profiles.msn.com.

From: Mary Hickman
Subject: Re: 'Race' and racism

As a contribution to the current debate on the list about
the concepts 'race', racism and racialisation specifically
with reference to the Irish in Britain I would mention that
in chapter one of my book 'Religion, Class and Identity'
(Avebury 1995) I discuss many of the issues in the context
of examining the articulation of anti-Irish racism and
anti-Catholicism. Placing many of the issues in the context
of theories of race and racism in general and in the
context of the construction of national identity. The
chapter also, relating to another recent debate on the
list, makes some assessment of E.P Thompson in this regard.

Mary Hickman

On Fri 15 Sep 2000 07:03:00 +0000
irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk wrote:


>
>
> From: Cymru66[at]aol.com
> Subject: Re: Ir-D Concerns 3
>
> I should like to thank Alex Peach for his very helpful contribution to the
> use of the 'racist' concept. I don't want to take- up much more of IR-D's
> time and space on this issue so I'd be very grateful if Alex could contact me
> direct and give me his exact email address; I know that it appears on his
> letters but it contains for me, at least, unfamiliar symbols and I'm not sure
> that they are actually part of the address!
> My full email address is Cymru66[at]aol.com
> Thanks again, Paddy, for the service you are providing for us.
> John Hickey

Professor Mary J.Hickman
Director, Irish Studies Centre
University of North London
166-220 Holloway Road
London N7 8DB

Tel: +44-(0)20-7607 2789
Fax: +44-(0)20-7753 7069
email: m.j.hickman[at]unl.ac.uk
------------

From: Hilary Robinson
Subject: Re: Ir-D Accent 9
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hydrogen.cen.brad.ac.uk id OAA27037

What about the shoes (very english-gentleman) which are known as brogues -
and the versions of them which are known as oxford brogues (or oxfords)? ie
heavy men's laceup with an extra layer of leather with punched-hole
patterns?

Hilary

>From: "Bruce Stewart"
>Subject: Re: Ir-D Accent 8
>
>0100,0100,0100Times New
>RomanTwo
>agin one and good scholarship to boot, so I withdraw my
>common-parlance interpretation of the Irish shoe. If Niall DÛnaill
>is correct, the implication is that the 'brogue' was first so-called
>by its Irish users not by its English auditors. That's to say, they
>characterised the difficulty posed by unfamiliar English
>0100,0100,0100phonetics
>as an 'impediment' and spoke of it as such with native-English
>speakers - who took the 'barrÛg' and ran with it, so to speak.
>
>
>As Americans and Irish people generally know, one of the
>oddest things about of a colonised country is the persistence of
>the native-language place-names (Chicago, Massechussets, and
>so on). This may be a manifestation of the same phenomenon on
>a different plane. Isn't 'phoney' allegedly derived from 'f·inne',
>signifying the 'ring trick' practiced by Irish migrants to London in
>Tudor times? That is a less amiable form of expropriation.
>
>
>Bruce.
>
>
>From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Dymphna=20Lonergan?=
>
>Subject: Re: Ir-D Accent 4
>
>
>
>Implausible and convoluted? Yes, I thought the same
>
>when I read the account of the origin of brogue in The
>
>Story of English (McCrum et al 1986) 'speaking with a
>
>shoe on his tongue' (p. 174) however I find the same
>
>convolution in Niall DÛnaill's FoclÛir Gaeilge-BÈarla
>
>(1977) in his entry for
>
>barrÛg: 1. Hug 2. Wrestling grip 3. Brogue, impediment
>
>of speech
>
>
>His entry for brÛg has nothing else but 'shoe'
>
>
>This seems to point to an earlier origin for brogue in
>
>the Ir. word barrÛg
>
>
>
>Dymphna Lonergan
>
>The Flinders University of South Australia
>
>Dymphna_1[at]Yahoo.com
>
>
>bsg.stewart[at]ulst.ac.uk
>Languages & Lit/English
>University of Ulster
>tel (44) 01265 32 4355
>fax (44) 01265 32 4963


_______________________________

Dr. Hilary Robinson
School of Art and Design
University of Ulster at Belfast
York Street
Belfast BT15 1ED
Northern Ireland


direct phone/fax: (+44) (0) 28 9026.7291)

The following item has been forwarded to us from...

IRISH NEWS ROUND-UP
http://irlnet.com/rmlist/

Tuesday/Wednesday, 12/13 September, 2000



> >>>>>> London emigrant event hailed
>
>
>
> 'Thousands are Sailing', the event organised by the London-based
> Wolfe Tone Society, was a resounding success on Saturday.
> Around 300 people crammed into Camden Irish Centre for a day of
> commemoration of post-war Irish emigration. Exhibitions were
> provided by the University of North London and the London GAA.
> Traditional music was heard throughout the afternoon and late
> into the evening by Sean Brady and Six Mile Walk
>
> The day included a rare showing of the late Philip Donellan's
> 1964 documentary, The Irishman, made for the BBC and then banned
> by it. The film documents the precarious and nomadic lives of
> some of the tens of thousands of Irishmen who had made their way
> to England to find work on building sites and roads in the two
> decades after the second world war, when the level of emigration
> almost matched the birth rate in Ireland.
>
> The film broke many of the accepted rules of documentary making
> of its day, most importantly because it allowed its subjects to
> speak for themselves, articulating with great clarity and skill
> the difficulties they faced on arriving in England. The complete
> absence of an upper-class English narration, mediating,
> interpreting and ultimately guiding its viewers to specific
> conclusions was a conscious choice and just one example of the
> way Donellan - a third generation Irishman but, superficially at
> least, very much part of the British establishment - broke new
> ground in film-making.
>
> The Irishman was introduced by academic and author of Screening
> Ireland, Lance Pettitt, who discussed some of the possible
> reasons for the banning of the film (the BBC has never offered an
> explanation). One was that outlined above; that Donellan did not
> observe the conventions of documentary making, but another
> important reason could also have been because the film shows very
> vividly the appalling conditions in which many emigrants - and
> indeed many members of the English working class - were forced to
> labour.
>
> Donnellan's daughter Philippa took part in the discussion session
> which followed the showing, during which emigrants had the
> opportunity to talk about their experiences of life in England.
> One observation was that, unusually for the time, The Irishman
> revealed the massive cultural differences between the Irish and
> the English, an observation borne out by contributions from the
> audience. Irish people arriving in Liverpool or London in the
> 1950s ad 1960s arrived in an entirely foreign and often hostile
> country. The Irishman dispelled the British colonialist myth that
> Ireland was merely a British offshore island and that its
> inhabitants shared not only the language but also the social
> assumptions and values of their nearest neighbours. Irishmen were
> often seen as simply 'bad' Englishmen.
>
> Timothy O'Grady's performance of his book about exile, I could
> read the sky, received an enthusiastic and often emotional
> response. O'Grady read extracts from his work against a backdrop
> of Steve Pyke's photographs and interspersed with music from Six
> Mile Walk and Tommy McMenamen of The Popes and song by Ruth
> Edwards and Sue Cullen. The readings were funny and poignant in
> turn as they expressed the feelings of exile and loss. One
> passage in particular elicited a huge sense of recognition
> amongst many older members of the audience:
>
> "What I could do: I could mend nets. Thatch a roof. Build stairs.
> Make a basket from reeds. Splint the leg of a cow. Cut turf.
> Build a wall. Go three rounds with Joe in the ring Da put up in
> the barn. I could dance sets. Read the sky. Make a barrel for
> mackerel. Mend roads. Make a boat. Stuff a saddle. Put a wheel on
> a cart. Strike a deal. Make a field. Work the swarth turner, the
> float and the thresher. I could read the sea. Shoot straight.
> Make a shoe. Shear sheep. Remember poems. Set potatoes. Plough
> and harrow. Read the wind. Tend bees. Bind wyndes. Make a coffin.
> Take a drink. I could frighten you with stories. I knew the song
> to sing to the cow when milking. I could play 27 tunes on my
> accordian.
>
> "What I couldn't do: Eat a meal lacking potatoes. Trust banks.
> Wear a watch. Ask a woman to go for a walk. Work with drains or
> with objects smaller than a nail. Drive a motor car. Eat
> tomatoes. Remember the routes of buses. Wear a collar in comfort.
> Win at cards. Acknowledge the Queen. Abide loud voices. Perform
> the manners of greeting and leaving. Save money. Take pleasure in
> work carried out in a factory. Drink coffee. Look into a wound.
> Follow cricket. Understand the speech of a man from west Kerry.
> Wear shoes or boots made from rubber. Best P.J. in an argument.
> Speak with men wearing collars. Stay afloat in water. Understand
> their jokes. Face the dentist. Kill a Sunday. Stop remembering."
>
> BY FERN LANE
>
>
> ---------------

Forwarded for information...

P.O'S.


>From: PMCELT[at]cs.com
>Subject: Irish Democrat on microfilm - 1939 to 1980
>
>
>A History of Change
>now available on microfilm - 4 reels
>
>· The post-war years - 'the Exiles Advisory Bureau' - Irish workers help
>rebuild a shattered Britain. Fighting exploitation and exclusion.
>
>· Immigrants as revolutionaries. The Irish in Britain as part of the
>British labour movement. The Irish as trade unionists and socialists in
>Britain.
>
>· The campaigns of the Irish and British people against the partition of
>Ireland. The first civil rights march from Liverpool to London.
>
>· The campaigns of the British/Irish for civil rights in Northern Ireland.
>The 'Bill of Rights' for Northern Ireland. Supporting MP's.
>
>· A history of the Irish in Britain and the Labour Movement. Policy
>statements.
>
>· A history of the Irish/British campaigns against the partition of
>Ireland. The publications.
>
>· The unity of Irish Republicans and British Socialists. The achievements.
>
>Notice for researchers and academic institutions.
>
>Primary source material now available
>a history of the anti-partition campaigns in Britain.
>
>The Irish Democrat - Published London since 1939 and still publishing.
>
>NOW ON MICROFILM
>
>Irish Freedom 1939 - 1944
>Irish Democrat 1945 - 1980
>
>£300.00 plus vat
>
>Details from
>Copyright holders
>
>Connolly Publications Ltd.
>Four Provinces Bookshop
>244 Grays Inn Road
>London WC1X 8JR
>
>Tel: 0207-833-3022
>E-mail: connolly[at]geo2.poptel.org.uk
>nb. Years 1981-1999 available early 2001
>
>Please Display/Advertise/
>

From: KP Corrigan
Subject: Re: Ir-D Oxford Brogues

This one is more straightforward than 'brogue' for accent. The meaning in
this case is likely to derive from the Gaelic adjective "broganta" which is
related to the noun "bróg". The adjective means 'sturdy' and 'brogue' -
Oxford or otherwise - is, therefore, often used to refer to particularly
robust shoes.

Karen.


>From: Hilary Robinson
>Subject: Re: Ir-D Accent 9
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by
>hydrogen.cen.brad.ac.uk id OAA27037
>
>What about the shoes (very english-gentleman) which are known as brogues -
>and the versions of them which are known as oxford brogues (or oxfords)? ie
>heavy men's laceup with an extra layer of leather with punched-hole
>patterns?
>
>Hilary
>
>>From: "Bruce Stewart"
>>Subject: Re: Ir-D Accent 8
>>
>>0100,0100,0100Times New
>>RomanTwo
>>agin one and good scholarship to boot, so I withdraw my
>>common-parlance interpretation of the Irish shoe. If Niall D¤naill
>>is correct, the implication is that the 'brogue' was first so-called
>>by its Irish users not by its English auditors. That's to say, they
>>characterised the difficulty posed by unfamiliar English
>>0100,0100,0100phonetics
>>as an 'impediment' and spoke of it as such with native-English
>>speakers - who took the 'barr¤g' and ran with it, so to speak.
>>
>>
>>As Americans and Irish people generally know, one of the
>>oddest things about of a colonised country is the persistence of
>>the native-language place-names (Chicago, Massechussets, and
>>so on). This may be a manifestation of the same phenomenon on
>>a different plane. Isn't 'phoney' allegedly derived from 'f?inne',
>>signifying the 'ring trick' practiced by Irish migrants to London in
>>Tudor times? That is a less amiable form of expropriation.
>>
>>
>>Bruce.
>>
>>
>>From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Dymphna=20Lonergan?=
>>
>>Subject: Re: Ir-D Accent 4
>>
>>
>>
>>Implausible and convoluted? Yes, I thought the same
>>
>>when I read the account of the origin of brogue in The
>>
>>Story of English (McCrum et al 1986) 'speaking with a
>>
>>shoe on his tongue' (p. 174) however I find the same
>>
>>convolution in Niall D¤naill's Focl¤ir Gaeilge-B»arla
>>
>>(1977) in his entry for
>>
>>barr¤g: 1. Hug 2. Wrestling grip 3. Brogue, impediment
>>
>>of speech
>>
>>
>>His entry for br¤g has nothing else but 'shoe'
>>
>>
>>This seems to point to an earlier origin for brogue in
>>
>>the Ir. word barr¤g
>>
>>
>>
>>Dymphna Lonergan
>>
>>The Flinders University of South Australia
>>
>>Dymphna_1[at]Yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>bsg.stewart[at]ulst.ac.uk
>>Languages & Lit/English
>>University of Ulster
>>tel (44) 01265 32 4355
>>fax (44) 01265 32 4963
>
>
>_______________________________
>
>Dr. Hilary Robinson
>School of Art and Design
>University of Ulster at Belfast
>York Street
>Belfast BT15 1ED
>Northern Ireland
>
>
>direct phone/fax: (+44) (0) 28 9026.7291)


******************************************************************************
Dr. Karen P. Corrigan,
Deputy Director, Centre for Research in Linguistics,
Department of English Literary and Linguistic Studies,
Percy Building,
University of Newcastle,
Newcastle-Upon-Tyne,
NE1 7RU
Telephone: 0191 222 7757
Fax: 0191 222 8708
E-mail: k.p.corrigan[at]ncl.ac.uk
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/crl/