From:
Subject: Re: Ir-D Reviews of Roy Foster 4

>From John McGurk:

Apropos of the these reviews of Roy Foster's latest. I
cannot help this one: I am acquainted with a 'character' who rides an ass
and cart up and down the road between Ballinrobe and Ballintubber during the
month of August scattering the odd bit of hay. I can't swear to it but I
understand he gets a fair 'doucer' from Bord Failte for the same.Not so much
then of 'auld Ireland in aspic', more of the Ballintubber ass out in front.
John McGurk


- ----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Saturday, Oct 29, 2001 06:00
Subject: Ir-D Reviews of Roy Foster 4


>
>
> From: McCaffrey
> Subject: Re: Ir-D Reviews of Roy Foster 3
>
> Might I just add to the discussion of the 'preserving in aspic' tendency
of
> Irish Americans. I agree wholeheartedly with John Hickey that this is
> indeed
> the case and many do it on a conscious level. Many Irish Americans are
> quite
> upset at the notion of the Celtic Tiger economy destroying 'their' Ireland
> of
> little cottages and enchanting but backward people who, God bless them,
were
> so
> unsophisticated as to welcome everyone into their homes at the drop of a
> hat.
> I think also there has to be a distinction drawn between the popular
social
> notion of Ireland and the accompanying popular history versus the
scholarly
> one, even here in the States. Some of the best work on Ireland has come
> from
> American scholars like Emmet Larkin yet some of the worst nightmarish
> popular
> imagery has also found a secure home here. By definition the popular one
is
> the best known one and makes the most money and appeals to the cock-eyed
> romantic view of victimhood. Frank McCourt might himself be put forward to
> canonization for his contribution to this image. It is far easier to fall
> off a
> bar-stool in drunkenness at the shock of hearing about another 'English
> atrocity' than it is to try and do a scholarly exploration of the subject.
> This victimization thesis also, significantly, appeals to the American
> notion
> of success and survival. The lower and more victimized your ancestors the
> greater your own achievement in rising socially and monetarily above it.
It
> also helps explain why they were broke while others were quite obviously
> rich -
> never mind the fact, for one, that the richest man in Ireland during the
so
> called lamentable Eighteenth century started out life as a poor Catholic
in
> Donegal.
> I feel however, that this discussion is not over and the Post-Colonialsim
> question of
> the whole truth of Irish history and indeed the very notion of Irishness
is
> still not answered.
> Carmel McC
>

From: Marion Casey
To: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Ir-D Aspic 2


Apropos of the comments of Linda Dowling Almeida and John McGurk, we
might as well quote directly from one of the principle 20th century
sources for the static Irish image abroad, the Irish tourism industry.
Speaking in 1977 at a conference called "Comeback for Erin? The
Prospects for the Tourist Industry," P.J. Fitzpatrick, President of the
National Tourism Council of Ireland, said:

?Ireland has an image of friendliness and hospitality. The average
tourist believes that apart from the scenery, the peace, the uncrowded
roads, the leisurely pace, the flavour of Irish relaxing with music and
song, he is going to meet a unique fellow-man. Over the years the
Irish on stage and screen have been portrayed as emotional, casual but,
most important, as friendly and cheerful people. It must cause concern
when all of us from time to time allow the pressures and problems of
this present day to crack, if not destroy, this image?.if we are to
loose [sic] our ?Irish-ism? we will just become another place to visit?
please, please let us remember WE ARE IRISH.? [emphasis in original]

I needn't remind anyone of the Irish Tourist Board's late 1990s
television campaign portraying Ireland as "the ancient birthplace of
good times."

My forthcoming manuscript with Johns Hopkins University Press deals
extensively with the manufacture and commercialization of an Irish
image in American popular culture over the past century. A significant
component of that image has always emanated from Ireland. The
observations of Carmel McCaffrey and John Hickey reflect
perhaps .0000001 percent of Irish Americans. Personally, I think that
Chicago calling for the mass canonization of Famine victims is far less
destructive than the Irish government pumping millions of pounds into
building the 'Jeanie Johnston' so that it can go on a glossy begging
voyage to American diaspora ports in the name of 'Famine Commemoration.'

And, for what it's worth to the discussion, Frank McCourt and the
Angela's Ashes phenomena have more to do with promoting the Celtic
Tiger image in the United State [i.e. see how far we've come in IRELAND
not Irish America] than with the old tourist trope mentioned above.

Marion R. Casey
Department of History
New York University

From: McCaffrey
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
Subject: Re: Ir-D Aspic 3

Marion Casey makes a case for the image of Ireland emanating from Ireland
but if my observation represents '.perhaps .0000001 percent of Irish
Americans' then we must suppose that the campaign has been a failure? I
won't take the foolish step of inventing figures but practically all Irish
Americans that I meet, especially if I lecture on Irish history or
literature to adults, reflect the views that I expressed. Much of this
imagery has existed since the Quiet Man flashed across the silver screen and
before. Years before the Irish Tourist Board got its act together. Where
does she get her figures from? Guesswork?

Maybe I have misunderstood her but there seems to be a breakdown in her
logic. She cannot state that the rustic image is invented by the Irish
Tourist Board and at the same time state that it does not exist in Irish
America. We can talk about where the image originated but we cannot both
say that it comes from Ireland and at the same time it does not exist.
Carmel




irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk wrote:

> From: Marion Casey
> To: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: Ir-D Aspic 2
>
> Apropos of the comments of Linda Dowling Almeida and John McGurk, we
> might as well quote directly from one of the principle 20th century
> sources for the static Irish image abroad, the Irish tourism industry.
> Speaking in 1977 at a conference called "Comeback for Erin? The
> Prospects for the Tourist Industry," P.J. Fitzpatrick, President of the
> National Tourism Council of Ireland, said:
>
> ?Ireland has an image of friendliness and hospitality. The average
> tourist believes that apart from the scenery, the peace, the uncrowded
> roads, the leisurely pace, the flavour of Irish relaxing with music and
> song, he is going to meet a unique fellow-man. Over the years the
> Irish on stage and screen have been portrayed as emotional, casual but,
> most important, as friendly and cheerful people. It must cause concern
> when all of us from time to time allow the pressures and problems of
> this present day to crack, if not destroy, this image?.if we are to
> loose [sic] our ?Irish-ism? we will just become another place to visit?
> please, please let us remember WE ARE IRISH.? [emphasis in original]
>
> I needn't remind anyone of the Irish Tourist Board's late 1990s
> television campaign portraying Ireland as "the ancient birthplace of
> good times."
>
> My forthcoming manuscript with Johns Hopkins University Press deals
> extensively with the manufacture and commercialization of an Irish
> image in American popular culture over the past century. A significant
> component of that image has always emanated from Ireland. The
> observations of Carmel McCaffrey and John Hickey reflect
> perhaps .0000001 percent of Irish Americans. Personally, I think that
> Chicago calling for the mass canonization of Famine victims is far less
> destructive than the Irish government pumping millions of pounds into
> building the 'Jeanie Johnston' so that it can go on a glossy begging
> voyage to American diaspora ports in the name of 'Famine Commemoration.'
>
> And, for what it's worth to the discussion, Frank McCourt and the
> Angela's Ashes phenomena have more to do with promoting the Celtic
> Tiger image in the United State [i.e. see how far we've come in IRELAND
> not Irish America] than with the old tourist trope mentioned above.
>
> Marion R. Casey
> Department of History
> New York University

For information...

Forwarded on behalf of

"Eileen Reilly"


THE CONSTITUTION AND THE DISSOLUTION OF THE DISCIPLINES IN IRISH STUDIES
A Faculty Colloquium organized by the NYU Irish Studies Program


The first two meetings of the colloquium will take place Friday, November
2nd and Friday, November 16th at Glucksman Ireland House

Friday, November 2nd, 2001, 12:00 pm until 2:00 pm
Nolan Conference Room
Glucksman Ireland House
"Irish Studies as Disciplinary Construct"
John P Waters
Assistant Professor of Irish Literature
Department of English

Academics working within the field of Irish Studies have engaged in recent
years in a series of debates about the nature of Irish society and the Irish
historical experience.

Within those debates, the weight given to the explanatory and descriptive
conventions of Literature and History, long the disciplines of privilege and
prestige within Irish Studies, has shifted. Such deeply ingrained features
of the Irish experience as poverty, underdevelopment, and emigration have
also changed dramatically in a very short time. Moreover, the certainties
of endemic political crisis have withered as the peace process has flowered.
Given these challenges, what are the prevailing conditions for disciplinary
self-consciousness within Irish Studies? To what extent should Irish
Studies be a comparative enterprise, and on what grounds might such efforts
be justified? What distinguishes the manner in which Irish Studies
constitutes the objects it studies?


In the opening session Professor Waters will introduce these and other
themes of the colloquium via a brief survey of current tensions internal to
Irish Studies, and the impediments to comparative disciplinary practice
within the field.


On November 16th, in conjunction with the Ernie O'Malley Lecture on the
evening of November 15th, the colloquium will welcome Professor Tom Devine,
Professor of Scottish History at the University of Aberdeen, who will speak
on Irish and Scottish historiography in the context of the Irish-Scottish
Academic Initiative.

Please RSVP via email to ireland.house[at]nyu.edu
listing your institutional affiliation and
field of study.

Buffet lunch will be provided.



************
Dr. Eileen Reilly,
Associate Director,
Glucksman Ireland House,
New York University,
One Washington Mews,
New York NY 10003

Tel: (212) 998-3951
Fax: (212) 995-4373

www.nyu.edu/pages/irelandhouse

From: "William H. Mulligan, Jr"
Subject: Re: Ir-D Aspic 1

Reviews of a book few have had a chance to read have certainly sparked
quite a discussion.
In addition to my interest in the Irish Diaspora I also work in public
history and there is a large literature on the variance between memory of
the past, especially popular memory, and history based on extensive
research. This is something I deal with on a regular basis in my public
history work. Foster's point, as I understand it from what has been posted,
is neither surprising nor unusual. Popular ideas about history and popular
understandings of history often deviate from those of academic researchers.
Quite often here in the US, for example, the "history" presented at historic
sites and in museums is the history of popular memory, not academic
research. James Lowen's addresses this fairly
directly. There are exceptions, and the exhibit on 1798 at the Collins
Barracks facility of the National Museum in Dublin is one. A museum exhibit
based on solid research in the sources and recent scholarly literature that
is presented very effectivley.
Most Irish Americans have grown up with a particular image of Ireland's
history and "current state" that varies based on how recently their families
left Ireland and how much contact they have had. Often, if not usually,
ideas about Ireland are formed independent of any direct experience with
Ireland. For most Irish Americans, based on my own experience and
acquaintances, emigration took place several generations ago and direct
contact with Ireland has not been consistently maintained. Understanding of
Irish history and images of Ireland come from family stories of a remembered
Ireland, movies and the media, and an unconcscious equation of their
experience as "Irish Americans: with being Irish. To the extent that Bord
Failte sought to reinforce the movie image of Ireland and play to the image
in the popular mind it has reinforced and perpetuated an obsolete
understanding of Ireland. The Ireland of reality, both historically and
currently, is a somewhat different place from that most Irish Americans
imagine. To the extent that scholars talk only to one another in books,
articles, and conference papers, and ignore, for the most part, museum
exhibits and historic site interpetation (both of which are rarely reviewed)
as important vehicles for presenting history, the situation will persist.

Bill Mulligan

From Email Patrick O'Sullivan

Recommended, the web site of Cornelius J Holtorf,...

Monumental Past
The Life-histories of Megalithic Monuments in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern
(Germany)
A living text

based on a doctoral dissertation
submitted to the University of Wales (Lampeter) in 1998
by Cornelius J Holtorf,
now of the University of Cambridge

http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/CITDPress/holtorf/0.1.html

Cornelius has made his web site something of an intellectual adventure...

But especially relevant to recent discussions are his discussion of

Pierre Nora - Sites of Memory
http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/CITDPress/holtorf/2.6.html

History and Memory
http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/CITDPress/holtorf/2.8.html

Social Memory
http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/CITDPress/holtorf/2.7.html

I am sure there is more, hidden in there. All nicely presented and
sourced...

P.O'S.


- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit

Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Email Patrick O'Sullivan

Irish-Diaspora list
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/
Irish Diaspora Net Archive http://www.irishdiaspora.net

Personal Fax National 0709 236 9050
Fax International +44 709 236 9050

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Interdisciplinary Human Studies
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England

From: "Dr. Matthew O'Brien"
Subject: Contra-aspic

I think it's worth returning to Roy Foster's original characterization of
emigrant ethnicity, if only to refute it. The notion of complete
preservation of Irish ethnicity is a fallacy. Ethnic memories are by their
nature selective, and that seems to be a factor of healthy adjustment
rather than betrayal of tradition. Would we really want to bear
responsibility for insisting that emigrants remain completely separate (and
therefore alienated) from their host society?
I've just finished a dissertation that compares Irish emigrant ethnicity
in Britain and the United States since 1920. This comparison highlights
the influence of various domestic developments (such as the Depression, the
Second World War, and the Cold War) in the commemoration of Irish heritage
among migrants and their children and grandchildren. Such comparative work
is important, in my opinion, because the debate over "authenticity" is a
dead end, resulting in insinuations about sincerity rather than a deeper
understanding of ethnicity. Ethnic ties are an attempt to integrate
traditional homeland experiences with the new environment of the host
country, and are thus inevitably influenced by both the country of origin
and the country of destination. So instead of characterizing
Irish-American images as out of touch, we might simply ask why so many of
them seem rooted in folk traditions of the late nineteenth and early
twentieth centuries.
Having shifted the question, then, I think there are both chronological
and ideological reasons for the prevalence of rural images of Ireland among
Irish-Americans. The first of these is obviously due to the conditions of
departure for most transatlantic migrants, with the majority of emigrants
to the United States leaving rural Ireland between 1850 and
1920. Secondly, the American national self-identification as "a nation of
immigrants" tends to lead to an emphasis on the latter half of migration
experience, during which recent arrivals avail themselves of the offerings
of "the Land of Opportunity."
Matt O'Brien

From: DanCas1[at]aol.com
Subject: Re: Soft seats

In a message dated 10/29/01 12:14:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,
irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk writes:


> The
> observations of Carmel McCaffrey and John Hickey reflect
> perhaps .0000001 percent of Irish Americans. Personally, I think that
> Chicago calling for the mass canonization of Famine victims is far less
> destructive than the Irish government pumping millions of pounds into
> building the 'Jeanie Johnston' so that it can go on a glossy begging
> voyage to American diaspora ports in the name of 'Famine Commemoration
>
>

A Chairde:

I disagree with Marion Casey. I believe the correct figure is .00000001%.

The saoiste (soft seat) elite in Ireland, the UK, and the US have always
despised Irish America. That's not new. That's the same old story. They have
merely replaced old Mick Mc Thick with a more explosive revisionist version:
Plastique Paddy.

Mc Court's portrayal of poverty in Brooklyn's Irish community during the
Great Depression? Baloney. Misery in Limerick in the same decade? Bunkum.

A 2nd New Departure for Irish republicanism under Adams' leadership?
Provo-agitprop.

IRA decommissioning? The IRA will literally have to rearm to disarm enough
to
satisfy the Orange Order Culture Clubs and their well-heeled fans in Ireland
and Britain' s academic establishment.

When I think of the hundreds of NYC firefighters who walked into the The
Flames on September 11th, or of my old neighborhood parish of St. Camillus
in
Rockaway, which buried thirty NYFD heroes, 75% of them Irish American, I
know
that Irish America is its own limitless source of inspiration.

And on that note of aspiration, I look forward to reading Dr. Casey's newest
book. After its publication, I am sure we be able to add another zero to the
percentage.

Slan,

Daniel Cassidy
An Leann Eireannach
New College of California
San Francisco

Hi folks,
I'm pretty new to the list but I wonder if folks who know the archival
scene could direct me.

I'm doing research on the political practices of the Irish in England
(London, Manchester and Liverpool), roughly between 1820 - 1834.

I have details on approximately 50 political events which took place in
London, Manchester and Liverpool during that period, taken from
periodicals of the day -- I have the location, participation and issues.
In order to better understand the interplay between migration and
political practices I want to examine representations of Irish migrant
collective identity which surrounded political action during this period.

So I'm interested in finding archives which have collections of letters of
Irish migrants to England. I'm coming over to Ireland and the UK in the
next few months, and I know that the Public Record Office in London will
be useful, but I'm interesting in any suggestions of other collections
which might be rich sources for letters, both between ordinary people and
more prominent political figures.

What I'd love to find are archival collections that might include letters
that would reference political organizations, struggles, faction fights,
social organizations etc. I know I'm appearing rather general - but any
suggestions about particular collections to go and investigate would be
fantastic.
Thanks so much,

Lesley Wood
Department of Sociology
Columbia University
New York, NY
USA

From: Marion Casey
Subject: Aspic again


It occurs to me that it might useful to our discussion if the List knew
about on online exhibit called "The Spin on Ireland." It summarizes,
using record cover art, many of the strands that have contributed to
the contemporary Irish image in American popular culture. See

http://www.nyu.edu/library/bobst/research/aia/exhibits01.htm#spin

Marion R. Casey
Department of History
New York University

From: Marion Casey
Subject: Re: Ir-D Aspic 4

There is no need for acerbity while we are discussing aspic. Please
carefully reread my post, Carmel. Where did I say the image does not
exist in the United States? Where did I say the Irish Tourist
Board "invented" the image? Where did I say that ludicrous percentage
was scientific -- aren't we permitted some levity among colleagues on
this Irish Diaspora List? I was trying to make a point! There is no
need to insult my scholarship on this subject.

I meant, and I stand by it, that characterizing all Irish Americans as
those ignorant, self-deluded fools described in your post and John
Hickey's is just as insulting as portraying Ireland as a country
of "little cottages and enchanting but backward people who, God bless
them, were so unsophisticated as to welcome everyone into their homes
at the drop of a hat." Most Irish American students and adults I
lecture to here in New York aren't so gullible; they are well read,
well travelled, understand media manipulation, and know how economic
and political successes in contemporary Ireland have been achieved --
as well as their own roles in that success.

That said, we need to recognize the difference that exists between
image and reality at home and in the diaspora. The longevity of the
evolution of the "Irish" image in the United States (i.e. since at
least the 1830s) means we absolutely MUST acknowledge that it has
become reality for some Irish Americans. It can not be dismissed as
delusion. (Wearing green, for example, has become a tradition here as
it has not in Ireland. We might not like that, but we can not belittle
it.) But the image changes over time and those contributing to its
evolution also change. Tourism absolutely predates motion pictures
when it comes to agency, so don't be so quick to blame it all on 'The
Quiet Man.' America and Ireland both bear responsibility. The evidence
is overwhelming.

I will also venture to say that we all bring different perspectives to
this issue, depending upon where we were born, raised, educated and
work. In my experience, broadly generalizing, the Irish Irish tend to
feel superior to Irish Americans. I hope a transnational dimension in
Irish Studies will dispel that attitude in the near future.

Marion R. Casey
Department of History
New York University

From: "James O'Keeffe"
Subject: Archival Collections-Advice

Hello

Like Lesley Wood, I too am new to the Irish-Diaspora list. I have
just completed registration of my Ph.D with the University
of North London. I am researching Thomas J Clarke,
1858-1916, and his connection to the Easter Rising.

I think that I have identified most of the archival sources
in Ireland & the UK but advice on any under used or lesser
known material would be gratefully received. I am aware,
through Marion Casey, of the Clarke papers now held by
Boston College and she informed me that NY University
does not hold any papers on Clarke.

I would be interested in finding out if there are
archival sources in the USA, 1880-1916, with particular
reference to Tom Clarke, John Devoy, Clan na Gael,
Fenianism, the IRB, Revolutionary Politics in connection
with the IRB and Clan na Gael or any other material related
to these themes. Tom Clarke spent, on and off, eight years,
1898-1907 in New York, and for a time was Devoy's
assistant, before returning to Ireland in December 1907.

I would also like to widen my knowledge of his role in
thwarting the two attempts by the British Government to
establish a pact between the UK and the USA between 1901 &
1905: he acted as secretary to the committee set up by Clan
na Gael to coordinate opposition to the proposed
treaties.

Good luck to Lesley in her research and search.

Many thanks

Jim

----------------------
James O'Keeffe
School Administrator
School of Education
j.okeeffe[at]unl.ac.uk
tel: 0207 753 5104

From: "Perry McIntyre"
Subject: Re: Ir-D Advice about archival collections

Dear Lesley,
The place to look in Dublin is the National Archives, Bishop Street,
particularly the Chief Secretary's Registered Papers which have been
invaluable to me in my research on Irish-Australian emigration. Have a look
at their website for some more details of this series.
http://www.nationalarchives.ie/
Perry McIntyre
perrymcintyre[at]optushome.com.au

- ----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 5:00 PM
Subject: Ir-D Advice about archival collections


>
>
> Hi folks,
> I'm pretty new to the list but I wonder if folks who know the archival
> scene could direct me.
>
> I'm doing research on the political practices of the Irish in England
> (London, Manchester and Liverpool), roughly between 1820 - 1834.
>
> I have details on approximately 50 political events which took place in
> London, Manchester and Liverpool during that period, taken from
> periodicals of the day -- I have the location, participation and issues.
> In order to better understand the interplay between migration and
> political practices I want to examine representations of Irish migrant
> collective identity which surrounded political action during this period.
>
> So I'm interested in finding archives which have collections of letters of
> Irish migrants to England. I'm coming over to Ireland and the UK in the
> next few months, and I know that the Public Record Office in London will
> be useful, but I'm interesting in any suggestions of other collections
> which might be rich sources for letters, both between ordinary people and
> more prominent political figures.
>
> What I'd love to find are archival collections that might include letters
> that would reference political organizations, struggles, faction fights,
> social organizations etc. I know I'm appearing rather general - but any
> suggestions about particular collections to go and investigate would be
> fantastic.
> Thanks so much,
>
> Lesley Wood
> Department of Sociology
> Columbia University
> New York, NY
> USA
>

From: Professor John Belchem
Subject: Re: Ir-D Advice about archival collections

I fear there is little available in the archives for the
Liverpool-Irish in this period -- if you find anything let
me know! I came across some letters and private papers in
the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland, otherwise all
I could find was police and similar official material at
Kew and in Bishop Street. The Sirr diaries in Trinity
College Dublin have some stuff on Ribbonism in Liverpool --
but I'm not sure this is 'vaut le voyage'. Happy hunting!
John Belchem



On Tue 30 Oct 2001 06:00:00 +0000
irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk wrote:

>
>
> Hi folks,
> I'm pretty new to the list but I wonder if folks who know the archival
> scene could direct me.
>
> I'm doing research on the political practices of the Irish in England
> (London, Manchester and Liverpool), roughly between 1820 - 1834.
>
> I have details on approximately 50 political events which took place in
> London, Manchester and Liverpool during that period, taken from
> periodicals of the day -- I have the location, participation and issues.
> In order to better understand the interplay between migration and
> political practices I want to examine representations of Irish migrant
> collective identity which surrounded political action during this period.
>
> So I'm interested in finding archives which have collections of letters of
> Irish migrants to England. I'm coming over to Ireland and the UK in the
> next few months, and I know that the Public Record Office in London will
> be useful, but I'm interesting in any suggestions of other collections
> which might be rich sources for letters, both between ordinary people and
> more prominent political figures.
>
> What I'd love to find are archival collections that might include letters
> that would reference political organizations, struggles, faction fights,
> social organizations etc. I know I'm appearing rather general - but any
> suggestions about particular collections to go and investigate would be
> fantastic.
> Thanks so much,
>
> Lesley Wood
> Department of Sociology
> Columbia University
> New York, NY
> USA
>

----------------------
ah14[at]liverpool.ac.uk
Professor John Belchem
Dean of the Faculty of Arts, University of Liverpool
12 Abercromby Square, Liverpool L69 7WZ
Phone: (0)151-794-2457 Fax (0)151-794-3765

From: "Ruth-Ann M. Harris"
Subject: Re: Ir-D Advice about archival collections

Would a memoir count? If so, Owen Peter Mangan's memoir is in the Public
Record Office of Northern Ireland. Born in Co. Cavan c.1839, he worked in
England before emigrating to America.
Ruth-Ann Harris



At 06:00 AM 9/30/01 +0000, you wrote:


>Hi folks,
>I'm pretty new to the list but I wonder if folks who know the archival
>scene could direct me.
>
>I'm doing research on the political practices of the Irish in England
>(London, Manchester and Liverpool), roughly between 1820 - 1834.
>
>I have details on approximately 50 political events which took place in
>London, Manchester and Liverpool during that period, taken from
>periodicals of the day -- I have the location, participation and issues.
>In order to better understand the interplay between migration and
>political practices I want to examine representations of Irish migrant
>collective identity which surrounded political action during this period.
>
>So I'm interested in finding archives which have collections of letters of
>Irish migrants to England. I'm coming over to Ireland and the UK in the
>next few months, and I know that the Public Record Office in London will
>be useful, but I'm interesting in any suggestions of other collections
>which might be rich sources for letters, both between ordinary people and
>more prominent political figures.
>
>What I'd love to find are archival collections that might include letters
>that would reference political organizations, struggles, faction fights,
>social organizations etc. I know I'm appearing rather general - but any
>suggestions about particular collections to go and investigate would be
>fantastic.
>Thanks so much,
>
>Lesley Wood
>Department of Sociology
>Columbia University
>New York, NY
>USA

Ruth-Ann M. Harris, Adjunct Prof of History and Irish Studies, Boston
College
Note new e-mail address: harrisrd[at]bc.edu
Home Phone: (617)522-4361; FAX:(617)983-0328; Office Phone:(617)552-1571
Summer and Weekend Number: (Phone) (603) 938-2660

From: McCaffrey

irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk wrote:

'Popular ideas about history and popular understandings of history often
deviate
from those of academic researchers. Quite often here in the US, for example,
the
"history" presented at historic sites and in museums is the history of
popular
memory, not academic research.'

Thank you Bill Mulligan this is precisely the point I was trying to make in
my
original post. There is a clear distinction between the two which few in
the
discussion has caught on to. The popular notion of history varies even in
Ireland - note the persistent belief in a 'Celtic Invasion' in spite of
copious
research to the contrary.
Carmel

From: "MacEinri, Piaras"
Subject: RE: Ir-D Keeping in Touch with Ireland

Hello Paddy and all on the list,

Further to your communication on keeping in touch with Ireland (and Liam and
Pauline Ferrie and their colleagues, in particular, have worked miracles now
for many years), people on the list not familiar with our website
(http://migration.ucc.ie) may like to note that it does carry a press
digest, compiled on a daily basis (or as often as time permits) from the
main southern newspapers (Times, Examiner and Independent) on emigration-
and immigration- related issues, from an Irish perspective. Lest I be
accused of partitionism, I would like to cover the Irish News and Belfast
Telegraph as well (and do from time to time) but it's a labour-intensive
business and these newspapers carry relatively few stories on migration and
diaspora-related issues (although the Telegraph has a very interesting
on-line site on emigration at
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/emigration/).

It is a regrettable fact that coverage of emigration and diaspora matters in
Ireland-based media is extremely patchy, especially when compared to the
acreage devoted to immigration and asylum issues. Most of the coverage which
does appear tends to be of the 'feelgood' variety or else relates to
particular issues such as the Irish and Irish-American angles to the Twin
Towers atrocity, but it is extremly rare to see, say, an analytical piece on
the Irish abroad or on an issue like voting rights. It seems that for too
many people here gone is also forgotten - but then many people have got very
smug and self-congratulatory in Celtic Tiger Ireland.

Piaras Mac Einri

Piaras Mac Éinrí Director/Stiúrthóir
Irish Centre for Migration Studies/Ionad na hImirce
National University of Ireland, Cork/Coláiste na hOllscoile, Corcaigh
email/post leictreonach migration[at]ucc.ie
web/idirlíon http://migration.ucc.ie

From Email Patrick O'Sullivan

For information...

Forwarded on behalf of...

Colin Harvey
Professor of Constitutional and Human Rights Law
Department of Law
University of Leeds
Leeds LS2 9JT

e-mail: lawcjh[at]leeds.ac.uk
tel:(direct line) 0113 2335029
fax: 0113 2335024


FINAL REMINDER

This is a final reminder of the Constitutionalism and Governance in
Transition conference to be held in the Waterfront Hall, Belfast on
Friday 2 November. There are some places left for this event. If you
are interested contact: Ita Connolly (i.connolly[at]ulst.ac.uk) or Colin
Harvey (lawcjh[at]leeds.ac.uk).

------------------------------------------------------------

CONSTITUTIONALISM AND GOVERNANCE IN TRANSITION


A Conference Jointly Organised by the University of Ulster and the
University of Leeds as part of the ESRC's Transitional Justice
Seminar Series
Friday 2 November 2001, 9.30am

Waterfront Hall, Belfast


Aim

The aim of this seminar is to focus on constitutionalism and
governance in transition. When a political community is emerging from
a protracted conflict, or making the transition from totalitarian
to democratic structures, serious questions arise around democratic
reconstruction. The obvious example is the problem of drafting a
new constitution. If the law and politics of constitutionalism are
contested in times of normalcy, then the situation is exacerbated
during periods of transition. In these periods some of the
fundamentals of constitutional practice are called into question.
Those engaged in constitutional restructuring face problems not
simply of institutional design, but also of how the substantive
normative basis of the ?new order? is reflected in the law and
politics of democratic practices.

The objective in this seminar is to build upon our first seminar by
drawing upon theoretical and comparative perspectives on
constitutionalism and governance in order to address some of the
questions raised in this seminar series. In addition, the seminar
will explore the dynamics of constitutional politics in Northern
Ireland in historical perspective. The seminar will clarify the
issues, but also seek to stimulate further thought on constitutional
reconstruction in periods of transition.


Outline

9-9.30- Coffee and Registration

9.30-10.00 Introduction

10.00-11.30 Session I- Constitutionalism and Governance in
Perspective

Chair
Prof. Barry Fitzpatrick, University of Ulster

Speakers
Prof. Martin Loughlin, London School of Economics
Politics, Governance and Constitutionalism

Dr. Jennifer Todd, University College Dublin
The Structural Context of the Good Friday (or Belfast) Agreement

11.30-11.45- Coffee

11.45- 1.15 Session II- Comparative Perspectives on Constitutional
Change

Chair
Prof. Colm Campbell, University of Ulster

Speakers
Prof. Isvan Pogany, University of Warwick
Constitutional Transition in Central and Eastern Europe: a View from
the Margins

Dr. Beverley Milton-Edwards, Queen?s University Belfast
Palestinian self- governance: internal dimensions of the Oslo epoch

Dr. Diarmuid Rossa Phelan, Trinity College Dublin
Title to be announced

1.15-2.15- Lunch

2.15-4.00 Session III- Governing Northern Ireland: The Law and
Politics of Constitutionalism in Transition

Chair
Prof. Colin Harvey, University of Leeds

Speakers
Dr. Margaret Ward, Assistant Director, Democratic Dialogue
Gender in transition? social and political transformation in
Northern Ireland

Prof. Paul Arthur, University of Ulster
Title to be announced


Prof. Tom Hadden, Queen?s University of Belfast
The balance between constitutional and human rights protections in
post-conflict settlements

4.00-4.15 - Summing Up



-----------------------------
Colin Harvey
Professor of Constitutional and Human Rights Law
Department of Law
University of Leeds
Leeds LS2 9JT

e-mail: lawcjh[at]leeds.ac.uk
tel:(direct line) 0113 2335029
fax: 0113 2335024

From: "William H. Mulligan, Jr"
Subject: Re: Ir-D Aspic 8

I think Matthew O'Brien raises several good points in his post and it
encourages me try and express something I have been meaning to put together
coherently for some time -- since a post by Breda Long of UCC some months
ago -- but from which I have been distracted.

Is being Irish somehow monolithic -- i.e. the same everywhere and at
every time -- or even tied to a direct "birth-link" with Ireland? Many
people in the US and, I would think, England, Canada, Australia, and
elsewhere in the Diaspora think of themselves as Irish, and are so
identified in their home country (with varying consequences), but have never
been to Ireland and may be separated from a direct link with Ireland by
three (or more) generations. Clearly, for them, being "Irish" will be
different in very significant ways than for someone who was born in Ireland
and emigrated and/or someone who remained in Ireland. Similarly, being
Irish-American will not, and cannot, mean the same as being an
Irish-Australian, etc. Not only will the image of Ireland held by different
people in the Diaspora differ, based on these and other factors, but their
individual sense of what it means to be Irish will differ as well. This will
have a very strong affect on how they view the "reality" of Ireland.
One of our tasks, it seems to me, as historians of the Diaspora is to
try and sort out how the various "vectors" -- including self-identification,
family traditions, and identification by the larger society -- that affect
(and effect) identity operate and shape the lives of individuals and
communities at different times and in different places.

Bill Mulligan


William H. Mulligan, Jr.
Associate Professor of History
Murray State University
- ----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 12:00 AM
Subject: Ir-D Aspic 8


>
>
> From: "Dr. Matthew O'Brien"
> Subject: Contra-aspic
>
> I think it's worth returning to Roy Foster's original characterization of
> emigrant ethnicity, if only to refute it. The notion of complete
> preservation of Irish ethnicity is a fallacy. Ethnic memories are by
their
> nature selective, and that seems to be a factor of healthy adjustment
> rather than betrayal of tradition. Would we really want to bear
> responsibility for insisting that emigrants remain completely separate
(and
> therefore alienated) from their host society?
> I've just finished a dissertation that compares Irish emigrant ethnicity
> in Britain and the United States since 1920. This comparison highlights
> the influence of various domestic developments (such as the Depression,
the
> Second World War, and the Cold War) in the commemoration of Irish heritage
> among migrants and their children and grandchildren. Such comparative
work
> is important, in my opinion, because the debate over "authenticity" is a
> dead end, resulting in insinuations about sincerity rather than a deeper
> understanding of ethnicity. Ethnic ties are an attempt to integrate
> traditional homeland experiences with the new environment of the host
> country, and are thus inevitably influenced by both the country of origin
> and the country of destination. So instead of characterizing
> Irish-American images as out of touch, we might simply ask why so many of
> them seem rooted in folk traditions of the late nineteenth and early
> twentieth centuries.
> Having shifted the question, then, I think there are both chronological
> and ideological reasons for the prevalence of rural images of Ireland
among
> Irish-Americans. The first of these is obviously due to the conditions of
> departure for most transatlantic migrants, with the majority of emigrants
> to the United States leaving rural Ireland between 1850 and
> 1920. Secondly, the American national self-identification as "a nation of
> immigrants" tends to lead to an emphasis on the latter half of migration
> experience, during which recent arrivals avail themselves of the offerings
> of "the Land of Opportunity."
> Matt O'Brien
>
>

From Email Patrick O'Sullivan

Before we say farewell to aspic, and without being too Aristotelian, I think
it worth remarking that this is what diasporas do...

There are constantly tensions between the diaspora and the homeland, and
between the different arms of the diaspora...

1.
I happen to be reading...
Greta N. Slobin, "The 'Homecoming' of the first wave diaspora and its
cultural legacy". Slavic Review, Vol. 60, No. 3, Fall 2001, pp. 513-529.

Contact information...
http://www.econ.uiuc.edu/~slavrev/

Previously mentioned on the Ir-D list...

Slobin makes an effort to place her discussion of Russian literature, exile,
emigre, Soviet, post-Soviet, within wider discussion of diasporas. She
quote Khachig Tololyan, that the attempt to maintain identity in the hostland
'ignores the extent to which these institutions and collective identities
have been transformed or even invented in diaspora and then retrojected into
a misty past...' '...they produce new collective identities and repress the
memory of old ones even while they celebrate memory and roots...'

The source is Katch Tololyan's journal...
Diaspora, Volume 5 Number 1 Spring 1996
Press. This web address
http://www.utpjournals.com/jour.ihtml?lp=diaspora/diaspora.html
should get to the journal?s web page?

Rethinking Diaspora (s): Stateless Power in the Transnational Moment
Khachig Tölölyan

Tölölyan looks at the ways in which dispersions have been transformed into
diasporas. He examines the material and discursive factors that reshaped the
diasporic project and enabled the rapid and widespread renaming of many
kinds of dispersions- ethnic, exilic, migrant, racial- as diasporas. He
argues that some factors were the work of diasporan elites while others were
extra-diasporic. He then explores the exclusions, disavowals and inadvertent
complicities that have underpinned the
success of the diasporic project in the past three decades.

She also quotes Paul Gilroy, 'Diaspora: Social Ecology of Identification',
in his book Against Race: Imagining Political Culture Beyond the Color
Line, Cambridge Mass, 2000 - which is pretty speedy of her.

2.
The theme of anger and the Irish Diaspora is not much studied... But is not
too hard to find... At the level of gossip I am hearing from around the
world a lot of (at least) irritation with today's young travelling Irish.
Whose cause seems to be as much generation gap as anything...

I am reminded of a discussion of anger and diaspora at Brian Lambkin's and
Paddy Fitzgerald's recent conference, on the Literature of Irish Exile -
following Pat Coughlan's sensitive exploration of the novels of (definitely
Irish-American) Alice McDermott. One of the difficulties of writing Irish
drama and fiction is that the first question is too often: Which female
character represents Ireland? So, there's one reading of McDermott's
Charming Billy - in which 'Irish-America' (male) is suckered by 'Ireland'
(female)... I said suckered - not succoured...

Paddy O'Sullivan

- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit

Email Patrick O'Sullivan
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