From: "Marion R. Casey"

I suggest looking at the Wild Geese website. Its members are very
knowledgeable about these subjects and there is a way to post questions
from the site.

http://www.thewildgeese.com




>
> From: Jim Doan
>
>
> Does anyone out there have good sources on the Irish brigade in the Spanish
> Civil War. A friend in Ft. Lauderdale asked me about this over the weekend,
> and I seem to recall some discussion on this topic in the past (I'm not
> sure whether it was on this list or elsewhere). You may respond to
> privately if you wish.
>
> Jim Doan
>
>
>
>

From: Jim Doan


Dear Enda,

Many thanks for the references.

Jim Doan

irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk wrote:

> From: Enda Delaney
>
> Dear Jim,
>
> I would imgaine that a recent book by Robert Stradling, The Irish and the
> Spanish Civil War, 1936-39 (Manchester UP, 1999) covers the Irish brigade in
> some detail. Another book on the same subject by Fearghal McGarry (History
> Department, Trinity College Dublin) is due to be published by Cork UP in the
> summer. Stradling's book is available and looks quite impressive.
>
> Enda Delaney,
> Institute of Irish Studies,
> Queen's University Belfast.

From: Patrick O'Sullivan

More on the Irish in Argentina...

1.
I have posted, as a separate email, a further message from Art Agnew,
the Irish Ambassador to Argentina.

2.
I have had a long phone conversation with Patrick McKenna, in Ireland.
Apparently he gave Ambassador Agnew a copy of his thesis, before the
Ambassador set out for Argentina.

There are really no concrete plans for publication. Patrick's own bound
copy of his thesis on the Irish in Argentina is now back with him, with
no evidence that a publisher has read it.

A number of people have sent sensible advice, to be forwarded to Patrick
McKenna - and I have added my own. The thesis does need re-writing, and
re-structuring. I suppose that I had naively hoped that a publisher
would get interested in the subject matter, and give Patrick advice and
assistance when it came to the re-writing. What with his farm and his
quarry, Patrick is a busy man anyway - he is not a full time scholar.

Anyway, Patrick is greatly cheered by the interest and encouragement of
the members of the Irish-Diaspora list. And the future of his work -
either as a series of articles, or hopefully a re-written book - is once
again under discussion.

3.
Brian McGinn has reminded me to read again David Barnwell's review of
Eduardo Coghlan, Los Irelandeses en la Argentina, 1987 - reviewed in the
Irish Literary Supplement, Spring, 1989. (David is now at the
University of South Carolina Coastal, Myrtle Beach.)

David says the book is 'the fruit of decades of research...', 'shows an
extraordinary mastery of the interlocking branches of the Irish family
tree in Argentina...' and the data is available to a reader with 'a
minimal knowledge of Spanish'.

'...but little has been done in Ireland in studying the Irish end of the
migration... the geographical and social origins of the migrants,
factors which pulled them towards Argentina rather than other
countries... mechanisms ...to facilitate the migration.' But this -
some of this, at least - Patrick McKenna has done.

P.O'S.
- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Irish-Diaspora list
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Interdisciplinary Human Studies
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England

A further message from Art Agnew, Irish Ambassador to Argentina...


#################
From Art Agnew:

For reasons of other pressing work I cannot follow up in detail on this
immediately, but at least I can give the 1904 reference in relation to
O'Brien:

Pedro Pablo Figueroa "Vida del general Don Juan O'Brien, Heroe de la
independencia Sud-Americana. Irlandes de nacimiento, chileno de adopcion".
This book, published in Santiago de Chile in 1904, "in the Imprenta Mejia,
of A.Poblete Garin" apparently "contains many references from other works
(i.e. other than that mentioned below) of Vicuna Mackenna and of Diego
Barros Arana".

I found this reference in page 9 of the 1938 book I came across recently,
where the author refers to his sources. He mentions as his first source a
'folleto' (pamphlet) by the 'historian of repute' Benjamin Vicuna Mackenna,
written shortly after the death of O'Brien in August 1861, entitled "El
general O'Brien". The edition used by the author of my book (given
immediately below) was that by Guillermo E.Miranda, Santiago de Chile, 1902.
My author describes the advantages of this book as being the fact that the
author knew O'Brien, with whom he was friendly and 'from whose lips he took
not a few references'.

The book I got last week, from which I take the above, is:

Repatriacion de los restos del general JUAN O'BRIEN, Guerrero de la
Independencia Sud Americana, Buenos Aires 1938, Guillermo Kraft Ldta,
Buenos Aires.

This work was put together by a 'Comittee (comision) of homage to General
Juan O'Brien' and includes, before the other documents relating to the theme
on the cover, the following part:
Mario Belgrano Biografia del Gral. Juan O'Brien 1786 - 1861, Guerrero de
la Independencia.

In Belgrano's biography I see a reference to another work (perhaps an
article):
Juan Estevan Guastavino, Un gesto de O'Brien, Buenos Aires 1921.

On another minor figure, Sargent Major of the Marine Don Juan King, there
exists a pamphlet of 28 pages: Horacio Rodriguez (President of the Instituto
Borwniano); King 1995, Casa Amarilla(i.e. the Institute HQ), Buenos Aires.

Best wishes
Art Agnew


- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Irish-Diaspora list
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Interdisciplinary Human Studies
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England

From: Patrick O'Sullivan

Noel Gilzean

has pointed out that there is an error in the URL for Irish Studies
Review that I gave in an earlier Ir-D message.

Thank you Noel.

Irish Studies Review is
http://www.bathspa.ac.uk/hum/isr1.htm

That is, htm at the end, NOT html.

Similarly, Carfax Publishing is at
http://www.carfax.co.uk/isr-ad.htm

What is irritating is that I copied down these URLS exactly from the
latest Irish Studies Review - their mistake, not mine.

(Mumbles defensively in beard and chews moustache...)

P.O'S.
- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Irish-Diaspora list
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Interdisciplinary Human Studies
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England

Forwarded on behalf of Ron Bayor

I would like to post the following announcement:

Ronald Bayor is serving as general editor of the Columbia Documentary
History of Race and Ethnicity in America (Columbia University Press) and is
seeking authors to write overview essays of approximately 35 pp. on issues
of race and ethnicity in any of the following eight chronological periods
(to 1700; 1701-1788; 1789-1836; 1837-1877; 1878-1900; 1901-1929; 1930-1964;
1965-1998. Authors will also identify primary documents that can be
reproduced in the book. Authors will be paid for their contribution. I plan
to complete this project in two years. If interested , contact Ronald Bayor
at RB2[at]prism.gatech.edu or call at 404-894-6834.

From: "Brian McGinn"


I am delighted to finally have some good citations on John O'Brien, thanks
to Art Agnew. And also on John King from Westport, who served in
Argentina's navy alongside William Brown.

The Ambassador's additions reminded me of two little mysteries, involving
the Brown and Mackenna families, that have intrigued and frustrated me for
some time:

1. When Juan Mackenna O'Reilly, grandfather of the cited Chilean historian
Benjamin Vicuna Mackenna, was killed in Argentina in a duel with one of the
Carrera brothers in 1814, William Brown acted as 'second' to Carerra. What
was the nature of Brown's relationship?

2. When Peru's independence from Spain was declared in Lima, in 1821, San
Martin presented his adjutant John O'Brien with a 300-year old State Canopy
that had been brought from Spain by Pizarro. O'Brien, according to Mulhall,
attached a handwritten note giving its history and purpose, ending "little
did they think its last owner would be an Irishman!" After O'Brien died in
Lisbon, 1861, he left the canopy in his will to a married daughter in
Valparaiso, Chile. In 1878, again according to Mulhall, it was in her
possession. But where is the canopy, and the note, now?

Any light the Ambassador can shed on these matters will also be greatly
appreciated.


Brian McGinn
Alexandria, Virginia
bmcginn[at]clark.net

From Patrick O'Sullivan


The Irish in South America - Bibliography

Enough already...

Call a halt.

Stop. Cease. Desist.

Last Friday Brian McGinn emailed me his completed Irish in South America
Bibliography - nearly 70kb.

Material has been reaching Brian via the Ir-D list - as we all know -
and directly. And he has arranged the material into a very readable,
and useful, Bibliography. It is a coherent guide to the essential, and
the available.

We will put the complete Bibliography on the Irish Diaspora Studies Web
site, with a little introductory essay and comments. The first of our
Irish Diaspora Studies study guides.

Looking back over the past three weeks I am a bit overwhelmed by what
has been accomplished. It was only last month that Brian and I
discussed the possibility of developing further the 'Further Reading'
sections of his Irish Roots articles.

On April 6 Brian posted to the Irish Diaspora list the First Draft of
his Bibliography. I looked then at that First Draft - and thought about
the years of work that had gone into it. These things are not easy to
find.

Then, comments and suggestions came to Brian, and Brian drew further on
his own resources.

In sum, at the beginning of April 1999 there was no standard Irish in
South America bibliography. Now there is.

The technology worked for us, yes. But so did scholarly generosity.

Our thanks to Brian McGinn for the impetus and the achievement.

I am writing a little note on the evident patterns within the
Bibliography, and I will post it to the Irish-Diaspora list at a later
date.

Patrick O'Sullivan
- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Irish-Diaspora list
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Interdisciplinary Human Studies
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England

This looks an interesting line of enquiry. Has anyone done any systematic work on
the Irish Immigrant/Emigrant guides?..

Forwarded on behalf of Robert Tabak ...

Guides for prospective immigrants offer a potential window to expectations,
hopes, misinformation, and realities of immigrant life. They offer a
potential tool for students to contrast text and other realities.

For a potential project at the Balch Institute for Ethnic Studies in
Philadelphia, I am interested in learning about the location of guides for
potential or actual immigrants to North America. These might be from
earlier centuries, from the 20th century, or in use today, and in any
language. Of course, I'd also be interested in knowing of any that have
been translated into English.

For a selection of several such guides now available in English, look at
the Balch Web site, www.balchinstitute.org/

Please reply to the list or to my work e-mail: tabakr[at]balchinstitute.org

Robert Tabak
Director of Programs
Balch Institute for Ethnic Studies

From: h.holmes[at]napier.ac.uk


Emigrant Guides
A number of guides were produced in Scotland during the nineteenth century for
Highland Scots going to America and Canada which are available in the Scottish
Record Office. For Irish emigration to Scotland and indeed to Britain I'm pretty
sure that the Catholic Church in Ireland undertook some work especially in the
1950s and the 1960s - try journals such as Christus Rex - there was some good
material on emigrant welfare in it which I was interested in in connection to
girls going to England. (cf parallels to the migrant potato workers to Scotland
which I am particularly interested in)

Dr Heather Holmes
Department of Print media, Publishing and Communication
Napier University
Craighouse Road
Edinburgh
EH10 5lG

This looks an interesting line of enquiry. Has anyone done any systematic work
on
the Irish Immigrant/Emigrant guides?..

Forwarded on behalf of Robert Tabak ...

Guides for prospective immigrants offer a potential window to expectations,
hopes, misinformation, and realities of immigrant life. They offer a
potential tool for students to contrast text and other realities.

For a potential project at the Balch Institute for Ethnic Studies in
Philadelphia, I am interested in learning about the location of guides for
potential or actual immigrants to North America. These might be from
earlier centuries, from the 20th century, or in use today, and in any
language. Of course, I'd also be interested in knowing of any that have
been translated into English.

For a selection of several such guides now available in English, look at
the Balch Web site, www.balchinstitute.org/

Please reply to the list or to my work e-mail: tabakr[at]balchinstitute.org

Robert Tabak
Director of Programs
Balch Institute for Ethnic Studies

From: Kerby Miller

THERE IS AN OLD DOCTORAL DISSERTATION, DONE AT ST. LOUIS UNIVERSITY IN THE
1940S OR 1950S, I THINK, ON FR. HANLON'S OR O'HANLON'S IRISH EMIGRANT
GUIDE. ARE YOU AWARE OF WHAT WAS APPARENTLY THE OLDEST SUCH GUIDE, REV.
WILLIAM MacSPARRAN'S AMERICA DISSECTED (Dublin, mid-18th c.). It's in
Evans, American Imprints.

Kerby Miller
University of Missouri.



>This looks an interesting line of enquiry. Has anyone done any systematic
>work on
>the Irish Immigrant/Emigrant guides?..
>
>Forwarded on behalf of Robert Tabak ...
>
>Guides for prospective immigrants offer a potential window to expectations,
>hopes, misinformation, and realities of immigrant life. They offer a
>potential tool for students to contrast text and other realities.
>
>For a potential project at the Balch Institute for Ethnic Studies in
>Philadelphia, I am interested in learning about the location of guides for
>potential or actual immigrants to North America. These might be from
>earlier centuries, from the 20th century, or in use today, and in any
>language. Of course, I'd also be interested in knowing of any that have
>been translated into English.
>
>For a selection of several such guides now available in English, look at
>the Balch Web site, www.balchinstitute.org/
>
>Please reply to the list or to my work e-mail: tabakr[at]balchinstitute.org
>
>Robert Tabak
>Director of Programs
>Balch Institute for Ethnic Studies

From: "Gary A. Richardson"


Dear Colleagues,

In her Our Irish Theatre Lady Gregory relates a conversation with Yeats and
their determination to take a group of actors" to An t-Oilean ur 'the New
Island,' the greater Ireland beyond the Atlantic" (i.e. the United States). I
have scanned several books on Irish folklore/mythology to no avail. Lacking
Irish, I was wondering am I was missing some potential connotation
(edenic/pre-lapsarian, e.g.) in the Irish phrase?

Thanks for the help.

"Gary A. Richardson"

From: "Gil Hardwick"
Subject: "Irish" in "England" & "Scotland".


Dear Colleagues,

There is an apparent mystery plaguing my current studies you may be able assist with
your comments.

Now, I am an anthropology major who also studied history, so do forgive me if I fail to offer
present national boundaries the respect they may be being given by other scholars. It is
simply the matter that most of the information made available to me by families living here
in Western Australia makes little sense when considered as Irish, Scottish, English, or
Welsh. Or even as Catholic or Protestant for that matter.

Nor does it make much sense geneologically; supposing some ancestor married so and
so in Ireland or Scotland, begat so many children, and so on fanning out into thousands of
descendants in Australia, who carrying "Irish" or "Scottish" family names are thought to identify
themselves on that basis, and thus find themselves being recruited into local branches of the
various ethnic nationalist organisations.

Taking as my starting point any child growing up today in Margaret River, however, tracing their
lineage back UP the many branches of their tree reveals ancestors born all over the place; their
father born NSW, Australia, grandfather in Durham, England, great grandfather Armagh, Ireland;
their mother born Victoria, Australia; grandfather born Somerset, England, or great grandfather
born Wales. Choosing any number of children much at random, the story repeats.

I am mindful that many Scots emigrated from Ireland, but also very many Irish emigrated from
England. During the 1840s, for example, significant percentages of Irish were working in places
like Durham, Cumberland, Lancashire and Cheshire. There appears to have been a large
Irish presence in Liverpool and Manchester, as well as Glasgow.

I am finding a substantial overlap among Irish, Scots and Welsh family names, and quite a few
more which appear to be local dialectal variations of names like McGrath, McGraw, McRaw,
McRae, McReath, McRaith, Raith, Rea, and Rawson for example, scattered throughout Ireland, Scotland,
and the English North Country.

As mentioned above, the emerging pattern makes little sense interpreted in terms of present
national boundaries. But if we look at them all as Celts travelling back and forth probably since
ancient times; for family reasons; to find employment; to escape localised fighting, throughout
what might well be regarded by these peoples as a common domain, regardless of who may
happen to have been the land "owners" or administrators through various historical periods
depending a great deal more on who won what battles when, than on what the ordinary people
thought of them, or found their lives noticeably affected by them (given general hard times).

Against that backdrop, then, historical events like the Scottish Clearances and the Irish Potato
Famine might be seen as particular instances of a general active migrancy of people, rather
than as discrete moments in themselves.

Two issues emerge.

Firstly, nationalist sentiment based on landmass; that is, on the different islands of Great Britain
appears to be a recent phenomenon arising noticeably after the founding of Australia, such that
Australians of older settler stock find themselves confused by the current political and historical
accounts of the events of this century.

Secondly, in the face of said nationalist sentiment these same peoples' identity is being caused
to shift, in order to keep pace with events taking place literally on the other side of the planet.

My study rather involves the process of _maintaining_ ethnic identity in this setting.

Gil


==================
Gil Hardwick
Consulting Anthropologist
PO Box 1009
MARGARET RIVER
WA 6285 Australia
+61 8 9757 9124

From: "Ide O'Carroll"

Subject: Re: Ir-D Immigrant/Emigrant guides


On guides etc. People may be interested to know of the Boston-based Irish
Immigration Centre's webpage - www.iicenter.org/ It's a great resource for
those planning to emigrate, and useful for those of us who wish to chart the
progress of the 'New Irish' immigrants in the USA. The IICentre is run by
and for Irish immigrants. I used to be on the Board, and am very impressed
by the fact that during its development over the years the Centre has
managed to forge very strong cross cultural links with other ethnic groups
in Massachusetts. Items listed on the page are - Employment Services,
Women's Programme etc. Leena Deevy is the Director.

The IIC's mission is described as follows:

"Our mission is to help newly arriving immigrants adjust to a new land,
economically, psychologically, and culturally, not only by meeting basic
needs, but also by helping them to become active participants in this
society. Central to the IIC's vision are an inclusive, non-sectarian
philosophy and a commitment to working cross-culturally with other groups."

Ide O'Carroll
An Tigh Gorm
Lismore
County Waterford
IRELAND

Research Associate, Centre for Women's Studies, Trinity College, Dublin,
IRELAND

Tel/Fax: +353-58-53276

The poet Mary Oliver asks: "What will you do with your one wild and precious
life?"

From: Kerby Miller
Subject: Re: Ir-D "Irish" in "England" & "Scotland"


Dear Gil Hardwick,
I think you have every cause to be mystified. Recently, I've been
exploring the evolution of "Scots-Irish" and "Irish" identities in 17th-
and especially 18th-century and early 19th-century Ireland and the American
colonies, but there are no satisfactory works on the subject. E.g.,
MacBride's recent book, SCRIPTURE POLITICS, addresses religious and
political divisions within the Irish and Ulster Presbyterian populations in
the 18th-century, but he does not deal with the question of when and which
Irish Presbyterians began to define themselves, formally, as "Irish"--as
opposed to "the Scotch nation [or interest] in Ireland"--as was common ca.
1700. According to Stevenson's book on the Scots Covenanting army in 1650s
Ireland, at that time Lowland Scots officials referred to Scots Catholic
Highlanders (especially but not exclusively the MacDonnells of the Isles)
as "Irish" or "Scots-Irish." How and when the latter term later became a
label for Irish Presbyterians alone--and even later expanded to include all
Irish emigrants not currently Catholic (e.g., Methodist farmers named
O'Brien in South Dakota by the 1880s)--is equally mysterious, so far, to
me. Joseph Leersen's FIOR GHAEL AND MERE IRISH is excellent on the
development of "Irish" identity among the 18th-c. Anglo-Irish governing and
literary classes, but ignores Irish Presbyterians and other Dissenters.
At the risk of offending some colleagues, I would suggest that
Irish Revisionist scholarship has pursued two somewhat contradictory paths,
which has further muddied the waters. One path has involved the
deconstruction and the contextualization of Irish Catholic national
identity--thereby "artificializing" it and pushing its origins as far
forward to the present as possible. But the second path, also designed to
expose the reputed superficiality of the Irish nationalist project and
ideology, has been to argue for the eternality and immutability of the "two
traditions" (Protestant and Catholic, unionist and nationalist) in Irish
history. My own research suggests the dynamic character of "Irish" and
"Scots-Irish" and other identities, and looks for their sources at the
internal divisions and conflicts within each "community" (as well as the
conflicts between them), and places equal emphasis on the mutability of
Irish Protestant identity. (E.g., Irish Presbyterian immigrants' letters,
written to Ulster in the Famine era by recent arrivals, that denounce the
British govt., Irish landlordism, the Church of Ireland, etc., and that
express sympathy for the starving poor of the South and West (their
"countrymen") and for the Young Irelanders' goals of revolution and Irish
independence, cannot be explained or categorized according to the
Revisionist dichotomy.)
Comments welcome,
Kerby Miller.



>From: "Gil Hardwick"
>Subject: "Irish" in "England" & "Scotland".
>
>
>Dear Colleagues,
>
>There is an apparent mystery plaguing my current studies you may be able
>assist with
>your comments.
>
>Now, I am an anthropology major who also studied history, so do forgive me
>if I fail to offer
>present national boundaries the respect they may be being given by other
>scholars. It is
>simply the matter that most of the information made available to me by
>families living here
>in Western Australia makes little sense when considered as Irish,
>Scottish, English, or
>Welsh. Or even as Catholic or Protestant for that matter.
>
>Nor does it make much sense geneologically; supposing some ancestor
>married so and
>so in Ireland or Scotland, begat so many children, and so on fanning out
>into thousands of
>descendants in Australia, who carrying "Irish" or "Scottish" family names
>are thought to identify
>themselves on that basis, and thus find themselves being recruited into
>local branches of the
>various ethnic nationalist organisations.
>
>Taking as my starting point any child growing up today in Margaret River,
>however, tracing their
>lineage back UP the many branches of their tree reveals ancestors born all
>over the place; their
>father born NSW, Australia, grandfather in Durham, England, great
>grandfather Armagh, Ireland;
>their mother born Victoria, Australia; grandfather born Somerset, England,
>or great grandfather
>born Wales. Choosing any number of children much at random, the story repeats.
>
>I am mindful that many Scots emigrated from Ireland, but also very many
>Irish emigrated from
>England. During the 1840s, for example, significant percentages of Irish
>were working in places
>like Durham, Cumberland, Lancashire and Cheshire. There appears to have
>been a large
>Irish presence in Liverpool and Manchester, as well as Glasgow.
>
>I am finding a substantial overlap among Irish, Scots and Welsh family
>names, and quite a few
>more which appear to be local dialectal variations of names like McGrath,
>McGraw, McRaw,
>McRae, McReath, McRaith, Raith, Rea, and Rawson for example, scattered
>throughout Ireland, Scotland,
>and the English North Country.
>
>As mentioned above, the emerging pattern makes little sense interpreted in
>terms of present
>national boundaries. But if we look at them all as Celts travelling back
>and forth probably since
>ancient times; for family reasons; to find employment; to escape localised
>fighting, throughout
>what might well be regarded by these peoples as a common domain,
>regardless of who may
>happen to have been the land "owners" or administrators through various
>historical periods
>depending a great deal more on who won what battles when, than on what the
>ordinary people
>thought of them, or found their lives noticeably affected by them (given
>general hard times).
>
>Against that backdrop, then, historical events like the Scottish
>Clearances and the Irish Potato
>Famine might be seen as particular instances of a general active migrancy
>of people, rather
>than as discrete moments in themselves.
>
>Two issues emerge.
>
>Firstly, nationalist sentiment based on landmass; that is, on the
>different islands of Great Britain
>appears to be a recent phenomenon arising noticeably after the founding of
>Australia, such that
>Australians of older settler stock find themselves confused by the current
>political and historical
>accounts of the events of this century.
>
>Secondly, in the face of said nationalist sentiment these same peoples'
>identity is being caused
>to shift, in order to keep pace with events taking place literally on the
>other side of the planet.
>
>My study rather involves the process of _maintaining_ ethnic identity in
>this setting.
>
>Gil
>

From: "Almeida, Ed (Exchange)"

Subject: RE: Ir-D Immigrant/Emigrant guides


I am familiar
with some emigrants guides and networking programs established in response
to the New Irish emigrants of the 1980s and 1990s. In the 1990s Project
Irish Outreach, a program run by Catholic Charities of the Archdiocese of
New York published Immigrating USA: A Guide for Irish Immigrants. The
program also offers counselling and other services to emigrants after they
arrive in New York. On the Irish side, the Emigrant Advice office run by
Centrecare, Dublin Diocesan Social Service Centre is a counselling and
referral service operating from the point of departure. I don't know if
they publish a single, universal guide, but the office in Dublin provides
brochures, contacts, networking services for prospective emigrants to the
US, Europe, Australia, etc. They provide advice on employment, housing,
financing the trip, how to transfer skills and education to new economy
and culture. Hope this helps.
Linda Dowling Almeida
New York University


>
> This looks an interesting line of enquiry. Has anyone done any systematic
> work on the Irish Immigrant/Emigrant guides?..
>

From: "Elizabeth Creely"
Subject: RE: Ir-D "Irish" in "England" & "Scotland"

I'm interested in what you're saying and I think I have a pretty good grasp,
but could you restate it for me in three sentences or less- I am at work
reading this so my comprehension is compromised.

"Elizabeth Creely"

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 1999 3:52 AM
To: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
Subject: Ir-D "Irish" in "England" & "Scotland"


From: "Gil Hardwick"
Subject: "Irish" in "England" & "Scotland".


Dear Colleagues,

There is an apparent mystery plaguing my current studies you may be able
assist with
your comments.

From: Carmel McCaffrey
Subject: Re: Ir-D The New Island


I don't have the Gregory book so I cannot speak to the exact passage but even the
use of 'ur' in such a way is not exactly correct. 'Ur' means fresh more than new
- - 'nua' would be more appropriate. Milk, for example, would be described as
'bainne ur' meaning fresh milk. As to referring to the US as an t-Oilean I am
confused - it is not an island and in Irish 'the new world' would be 'an tir nua'
- - when you say Oilean, the Aran islands come to mind. Was she confusing the two?
Carmel McCaffrey

irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk wrote:

> From: "Gary A. Richardson"
>
> Dear Colleagues,
>
> In her Our Irish Theatre Lady Gregory relates a conversation with Yeats and
> their determination to take a group of actors" to An t-Oilean ur 'the New
> Island,' the greater Ireland beyond the Atlantic" (i.e. the United States). I
> have scanned several books on Irish folklore/mythology to no avail. Lacking
> Irish, I was wondering am I was missing some potential connotation
> (edenic/pre-lapsarian, e.g.) in the Irish phrase?
>
> Thanks for the help.
>
> "Gary A. Richardson"

From: "Gil Hardwick"
Subject: Re: Ir-D "Irish" in "England" & "Scotland"

>
> From: Kerby Miller
> Subject: Re: Ir-D "Irish" in "England" & "Scotland"
>
>
> Dear Gil Hardwick,
> I think you have every cause to be mystified. Recently, I've been

- only to save bandwidth . . . :)

Thanks tremendously Kerby!

This business of people being referred to as "Irish" and "Scots-Irish"
appears very relevant to our enquiries. At present I am spending most of
my time out surveying this community, so with books still shelved please
do excuse my lack of references here; but I have also read of these same
people being called hottentots and aborigines.

I have a report of photographs still in existence of Irish Catholic
"needlewomen" shipped out here in the bride ships from convents in
Ireland during the early 1850s, to balance the sexes in the struggling
colony.

These girls were photographed posing in new, freshly pressed although
thoroughly ill-fitting clothing, bible in hand and crucifix on a rosary
around their necks. Similar photographs of Australian Aboriginal women
exist, taken at various Australian missions.

Are we looking at peoples later again redefined as "working class" in
social analysis, for here we have Maori thrown indiscriminately into
the same class of people?

It is of interest that Kerby also mentions that among themselves Scots-
Irish Presbyterians referred to other Irish as their "countrymen". The
Gaelic word "tuatha" means precisely that; fellow countrymen, kinsmen.

In the local Nyungar language, the word "nyungar" can be very directly
translated, to carry the same depth and complexity of social meaning
among a people who will spontaneously form sound working relationships
with others, even visitors, where blood ties are weak or non-existent.

Presbyterianism was not at that time included in Protestantism, but was
dismissed as non-conformity, and dissent against the Episcopalianism of
the Established Church in favour of government by elders, based on their
own traditionally decentralised clan structure, the tuath.

Huguenots, Presbyterians, Quakers and others, furthermore, found refuge
in Ireland, and in many a family tree there are found numerous Catholic
spouses. I am persuaded, again, that the accepted distinctions are doing
us no service whatsoever.

It is in their characteristic social behaviours, I believe, that we are
able to locate the mutability of identity (in English terms) of these
peoples, and begin to clarify and map social processes identifying them
in their own terms.


I am wondering to what extent we may attack the knot by such a shift in
emphasis, less perhaps in revising the English usage but in transposing
native concepts by translating instead from the Gaelic? A great deal of
the work we are doing here in Australia is simply impossible to access
unless we are translating from Aboriginal languages or creoles, and by
working out in the field recording oral histories instead of relying on
the accepted documents and sources.

[Over the next week or so I will be trying to get Eudora Lite to work
properly under Microsoft Explorer, so if some of my mail gets wonky you
will all know what is happening at this end.]


Gil

From: "Bruce Stewart"


Dear Patrick,

Can I mention the fact that there is an IASIL Newsletter with
notices, listings, reviews, and a hefty Irish studies bibliography on
line now at http://www.ulst.ac.uk/iasil .. click Current Newsletter.
I'm sure your Ir-D listers will find something of interest in it.

best wishes, Bruce.

bsg.stewart[at]ulst.ac.uk
Languages & Lit/English
University of Ulster
tel (44) 01265 32 4355
fax (44) 01265 32 4963