From: Don MacRaild
Subject: Ir-D Loyalty to Irish counties 4

I'm beginning to see this is a gap in my knowledge. News is coming in of
county associations in various parts of Britain. Not sure whether we are
talking 19thC or 20thC, or both. So, off to do some more reading ....
Thanks to Paddy Walls; and also to Joe Bradley who sent me an email
pointing out Scottish examples.

Don MacRaild


- -----Original Message-----

From: WallsAMP[at]aol.com
Subject: Re: Ir-D Loyalty to Irish counties 2

There are quite a number of county associations in different parts of
Britain
listed in Shades of Green: A directory of the Irish in Britain (Clare
Barrington). It seems that most of these were formed in the 50s and
early
60s. A period of very high emigration.

It seems therefore that county 'loyalty' was (still is) important to
some
Irish people in Britain.

Paddy Walls

From: "Collins, Neil"

Can colleagues help...

Has there been a survey examining loyalty to counties in Ireland?

I am aware of the historical evidence, particularly that focussing on
the role of the GAA. I am looking for some empirical evidence in recent
years on the importance of the county as a focus for popular loyalty.


Thank you,

Neil Collins

Professor Neil Collins
Department of Government
University College Cork
Cork
Ireland

From Email Patrick O'Sullivan

We have been contacted by

Zvi Bekerman
mszviman[at]mscc.huji.ac.il

Zvi Bekerman teaches at the School of Education Hebrew University in
Jerusalem. For the last couple of years he has been conducting
qualitative research in integrated Palestinian-Jewish schools. He
writes...

EXTRACT BEGINS>>>

Recently I have renewed my interest in another area of research which
relates to the efforts of minority groups to educate their youth towards
a particular ethnic/religious identification/heritage/etc. In my
particular case I have been looking at Jews.

I am trying to identify other researchers who might have studied the
educational efforts of other ethnic/religious/national groups towards
cultural sustainability. I'm well aware that much has been done in this
field regarding bilingualism but I'm looking for groups which use
elements other than simply teaching language in their educational
efforts (the study of texts, customs, traditions, etc). I would like to
get these people together for a small conference and maybe think in
terms of some comparative study.

These issues seem to me to be central to theorizing in what today is
called Multicultural Studies/Education but I think their different focus
promises a more interesting work than the one I have been able to
identify till present.

I would as well very much appreciate names of other researchers you may
know dealing with issues related to educational initiatives geared
towards cultural sustainability for other minority groups.

Cordially,

Zvi Bekerman, Ph.D.
School of Education, Melton Center
Hebrew University
Mount Scopus, Jerusalem
91905 Israel
Fax # 02-5322211
Phone # 02-5882120

EXTRACT ENDS>>>

I wrote a brief note for Zvi Bekerman, and we have exchanged further
thoughts. Just for clarification, he is looking for contacts with
researchers who have looked at ways in which groups use
schools/education to sustain cultural heritage. However he is already
broadening this to look at other strategies. In the longer term further
research, or a conference and/or book seem to be planned.

I know that this chimes with the interests of some Irish-Diaspora list
members. If the idea is of interest feel free to contact Zvi Bekerman
directly.

P.O'S.


- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit

Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Personal Fax 0044 (0) 709 236 9050

Irish-Diaspora list
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/
Irish Diaspora Net Archive http://www.irishdiaspora.net

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Social Sciences and Humanities
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England

From Email Patrick O'Sullivan

This review is being distributed by H-Net...

P.O'S.

H-NET BOOK REVIEW
Published by H-Albion[at]h-net.msu.edu (December, 2002)

Patrick Griffin. _The People with No Name: Ireland's Ulster Scots,
America's Scots Irish, and the Creation of a British Atlantic World,
1689-1764_. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2001. xv + 244 pp.
Maps, notes, bibliography, and index. $55.00 (cloth), ISBN
0-691-07461-5; $19.95 (paper), ISBN 0-691-07462-3.

Reviewed for H-Albion by Bruce P. Lenman ,
Department of Modern History, University of St. Andrews

At Last: A Sane and Sophisticated Analysis of the Creation and
Recreation of a Group Identity

Nineteenth-century nationalist rhetoric is only too alive and well,
whether in the Balkans recently, or in the guise of studies of "national
identity formation," in unstable, even dangerous formulations from some
in Academe. When one regards imaginative literature as a primary source
for sweeping conclusions about complex communities one can end up deep
in intellectual trouble. One can therefore welcome with open arms this
fine piece of technically competent but accessibly written history that
takes an historical community of pivotal importance for the history of
the American Revolution, and indeed for the early decades of the history
of an independent United States of America. As is so often the case,
the subtitle is a better guide to the substance of the work than the
catchy title. These people had, if anything, too many names. In the
early 1730s Mr. Thomas Cressap summed them up as "Damned Scotch Irish
Sons of Bitches," but then he also called the Proprietor and people of
Pennsylvania "Damned Quakering Dogs" (p. 138). Mr. Cressap came from
Maryland and had been sent to wage terrorist war on the inhabitants of
those parts of Pennsylvania claimed by Maryland on the strength of its
quite outrageous Caroline charter. The Ulster men and women who are the
subject of this study called themselves various names, including Irish,
which they were, among other things, but what his book shows with
insight and economy is that they always qualified their own definitions
with others, usually equally valid. They were Presbyterians, not
Papists, nor were they those Irish people who constituted the exclusive
political nation of eighteenth-century Ireland--members of the Anglican
established Church of Ireland. They had close connections with the west
of Scotland where many of their clergy went for university education,
but they were not Scots.

Governor Patrick Gordon, both parts of whose name indicate roots in the
North East shoulder of Scotland, clearly did not deem the immigrants
from Ulster fellow Scots. When he was wrestling with their settlement
in Pennsylvania in the 1730s, he regarded them as distinctive, hardy,
and useful like the Palatine Germans who were also pouring in and often
lived beside them. Many colonists agreed with him about the Germans,
but had grave doubts about "the Irish." Immigrants from Ulster
complained of violent prejudices that depicted them as "Kidnappers,
Pickpockets, Knaves and Villains" (p. 103). One of the great strengths
of this book is that it moves with as much assurance in the north of
Ireland as it does on the frontiers of colonial Pennsylvania and
Virginia. It shows the complex background from which these people came.
Above all it shows that though the whole Kingdom of Ireland was poor in
relative terms for much of the eighteenth century, these people were far
from being the poorest in Ulster. On the contrary, they had seized on
the opportunities offered by an expanding linen industry to supplement
an agriculture that was itself entrepreneurial, with cash crops and
exports crucial to it. They had entered into a commercial world where
they, like American Puritans, worried about the impact of materialism on
that Sheba, human egoism, or Self. Partly because of their more
sophisticated lifestyle, they were particularly vulnerable to the
hazards thrown in the way of their sense of community by the rate of
social and economic change. Theologically, they saw their presbyteries
and synods, the source of their social discipline and of much of their
identity, divided by disputes between the Old Lights and the New Lights.
Economically, of course, they were subject to the cycle of boom and
slump. When this corresponded with an old-style subsistence crisis such
as struck in 1718 and 1719, or again in 1739 and 1740, they would
emigrate in droves.

Another excellent feature of this book is the sane way it treats the
evidence of the role of the Irish landlord in this saga. Long blamed
for all the problems of Ireland and unforgivably abused by English
writers in the aftermath of the 1918 to 1922 fighting in Ireland, when
these people were finished, defenseless, and irrelevant, they emerge
here as European landlords. They functioned like any other landlords,
and certainly were not in a position to rack rents above economic levels
for any length of time. On the contrary, they could not collect rents
when the situation was bad. Very interestingly, there is evidence in
this book that Ulster merchants found land a poor investment. That does
seem to have been a chronic problem: Ulster businessmen were refusing to
buy parts of the Dufferin estates offered for sale in the 1880s for
exactly the same reason. Tithes for the Established Church were
probably more resented than rents, which were paid by most Europeans,
though of course in bad times rent was a problem.

Intriguing is the stress here on the positive side of emigration. These
mobile and entrepreneurial people tried to recreate in America what they
had come to regard as desirable but could not attain in Ulster: economic
prosperity, easy access to fertile land, freedom of religion in the
fullest sense, and religious and social unity. Women seem to have been
well aware of the enhanced chances of rapid social advancement through
marriages with males much better off than those they could normally
aspire to at home. As they settled the frontiers of Pennsylvania and
poured down into the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia, they gave short
shrift to people like Marylanders or Indians who stood in the way of
their ambitions. For a British government that in their view failed to
protect them they came to feel deep contempt and argued, correctly, that
without protection there was no obligation to give obedience. Between
1718 and 1775 some 100,000 men and women from Ulster reached North
America, making them the single biggest group from the British Isles
(one of their many identities from time to time was British) to move
across the Atlantic in the eighteenth century. They were "British" and
became "American," just as later many went from Presbyterian to Baptist.
They invented and reinvented themselves and in doing so invented much of
the framework of values and attitudes still found in the United States,
including perhaps the absence of a real name for its people or itself.

America is the whole hemisphere and Mexicans and Argentinians are clear
they are Americans. Hence the often richly comic pursuit of other
adjectives like Columbian, which dates from 1757, and occasional bursts
of Columbus mania (blessedly now politically incorrect, save for Italian
Americans). We all invent and reinvent ourselves all the time. We all
have multiple identities and those who deny this right to us are
invariably up to no good. Our shifting self images always have a
manipulative element in them, which can become strident and aggressive
when tied to sectarian or linguistic or ethnic group interests. We need
to be far more aware and sophisticated in our analysis of the many and
changing identities of any one person or group, which can vary with the
audience which that person or group is addressing. This small but
important book is a good start and a model monograph.

Copyright 2002 by H-Net, all rights reserved. H-Net permits the
redistribution and reprinting of this work for nonprofit,
educational purposes, with full and accurate attribution to the
author, web location, date of publication, originating list, and
H-Net: Humanities & Social Sciences Online. For other uses
contact the Reviews editorial staff: hbooks[at]mail.h-net.msu.edu.

From: WallsAMP[at]aol.com
Subject: Re: Ir-D Loyalty to Irish counties 2

There are quite a number of county associations in different parts of
Britain
listed in Shades of Green: A directory of the Irish in Britain (Clare
Barrington). It seems that most of these were formed in the 50s and
early
60s. A period of very high emigration.

It seems therefore that county 'loyalty' was (still is) important to
some
Irish people in Britain.

Paddy Walls

From: Kerby Miller
Subject: Re: Ir-D Loyalty to Irish counties

This raises a curious issue. In the work I've done in 18th- and
19th-century Irish censuses, I've been obliged to deal with problems
caused by parishes that are shifted from one county to another over
time. The borders between co. Dublin, Kildare, King's, and Wicklow
seem to have been particularly flexible (and confusing). I've also
wondered how the inhabitants of the affected parishes felt about
these changes, especially with respect to their presumed
long-standing loyalties to their former county.

A related issue is the virtual impossibility of finding a wall map of
Ireland today (for my history classes) that shows the old counties in
Northern Ireland, rather than the new-fangled "Districts." It's my
impression, from several years there, that people in the North pay no
attention to such Districts when defining their identities and places
of origins, but clearly there seems to be a gap between the popular
and the official "minds" as to how the inhabitants of Northern
Ireland should learn and think about their political geography.

Kerby Miller.



>From: "Collins, Neil"
>
>Can colleagues help...
>
>Has there been a survey examining loyalty to counties in Ireland?
>
>I am aware of the historical evidence, particularly that focussing on
>the role of the GAA. I am looking for some empirical evidence in
>recent years on the importance of the county as a focus for popular
>loyalty.
>
>
>Thank you,
>
>Neil Collins
>
>Professor Neil Collins
>Department of Government
>University College Cork
>Cork
>Ireland

From: Peter Hart
Subject: Re: Ir-D Loyalty to Irish counties 6

My own research on republicans in 20C Britain suggests that the most
significant mental boundaries lay between those born in Britain and
those who migrated in as (more or less) adults - to the disadvantage and
frustration of the British-born contingent, needless to say. Even more
striking, though, was the division between those in London, northern
England and Scotland. Republicans in these regions sometimes found it
very difficult to work together, with everyone else resentful of the
Londoners' pretensions to leadership. One intrpretation of this, of
course, is that it simply replicated British tensions - a fascinating
melding of identities. I don't know if anyone else has found anytihng
similar?

In Newfoundland and elsewhere in Canada and the U.S., at least before
the Famine, the most important factional dividing line seems to have
been that between Leinster and Munster. This apparently declined in the
2nd half of the century, though. I'm sure others can say much more on
this than me.

Much recent work on the old I.R.A. - my own and others' - has stressed
the salience of county loyalties to guerrillas and their units. A
possible reflection of G.A.A. loyalties, but the role of the G.A.A. in
manning the movement can easily be overstated. This did not preclude
intra-county rivalries or inter-county alliances, of course, but it did
have a powerful influence at times. Hence the notorious domination of
the revolutionary movement by the greatest county of them all: in fact
I've been thinking of writing a book entitled `When Cork ruled
Ireland'....

Peter
>

From: Don MacRaild
Subject: RE: Ir-D Loyalty to Irish counties

There is a piece, I recall, on county associations in New York (Bayor
and Meagher's excellent New York Irish, published by Johns Hopkins UP).
Paddy wrote a reflection on the very issue on for the IR-D list some
time ago. Perhaps it's in the archives, now?

It's a mystery why the Irish in 19th century Britain don't evoke
memories of homeland by forming county associations -- could it be
because they could (and did) travel back to their home counties more
easily than their American cousins?


Don MacRaild
Northumbria

From: patrick maume
Subject: Re: Ir-D Loyalty to Irish counties 4

From: Patrick Maume
Were these moves between counties or dioceses? Many
Catholic dioceses, especially in the West of Ireland, have
non-contiguous borders because the boundaries were drawn up in
the twelfth century on the basis of whether the local church was
affiliated to a particular monastic federation. THere has been
some tidying-up over time. I remember coming across newspaper
reports of a big dispute in the 1890s over a parish near
Oughterard. THe parish was transferred from the Tuam
archdiocese to Galway - to the great annoyance of the
parishioners since it meant their children would not be eligible
for the Tuam diocesan college St. Jarlath's (one of the few
Catholic secondary schools in Connacht, and seen as particularly
high-quality). THe PP went to Rome to appeal the decision,
lost, refused to accept it, and was suspended. THe
parishioners backed him, and there was literally fighting in the
church between his supporters and those of the new PP sent by
the Bishop of Galway. THe whole thing got dragged into the
secular courts, and a minor local schism persisted for some
time. One interesting point - it is clear from the court
reports that the dissidents were predominantly Irish-speakers.
Violet Martin of Somerville and Ross has a brief reference to
the dispute in her fragmentary autobiography though she didn't
know what caused it.
Best wishes
Patrick
On 09 January 2003 05:59 irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk wrote:

>
>
> From: Kerby Miller
> Subject: Re: Ir-D Loyalty to Irish counties
>
> This raises a curious issue. In the work I've done in 18th- and
> 19th-century Irish censuses, I've been obliged to deal with problems
> caused by parishes that are shifted from one county to another over
> time. The borders between co. Dublin, Kildare, King's, and Wicklow
> seem to have been particularly flexible (and confusing). I've also
> wondered how the inhabitants of the affected parishes felt about
> these changes, especially with respect to their presumed
> long-standing loyalties to their former county.
>
> A related issue is the virtual impossibility of finding a wall map of
> Ireland today (for my history classes) that shows the old counties in
> Northern Ireland, rather than the new-fangled "Districts." It's my
> impression, from several years there, that people in the North pay no
> attention to such Districts when defining their identities and places
> of origins, but clearly there seems to be a gap between the popular
> and the official "minds" as to how the inhabitants of Northern
> Ireland should learn and think about their political geography.
>
> Kerby Miller.
>
>

From: "WILLIAM MULLIGAN"
Subject: RE: Ir-D Loyalty to Irish counties 2

In my research on Irish immigrants in Michigan's Copper Country
(c.
1845-1920) I've not yet found any county organizations and little
evidence of county loyalty. In fact there are very few, if any,
references to Irish counties in newspapers or other sources I've found.
Birthplace, including county, does show up on some tombstones, although
Ireland is probably as common. Unfortunately, not very many have
survived and may not represent county loyalty, but simply be customary
- -- tombstones for native-born Americans and other immigrants are as
likely to list such information.
In a few cases business partners were from the same county, but
since their families were intermarried it may have been family rather
than county loyalty. An interesting thing to look at in the future.
This is an interesting question and it makes me curious if
residence may be related to county origin. Years ago a fellow grad
student found a similar pattern among Italians in Providence, RI --
whole blocks from the same area in Italy with little "mixing." Irish
residential areas often have a county designation, "Corktown" for
example. Could this be related to county of origin? The Copper County
had a "Corktown" and many of the residents there had County Cork names.
But it also had a "Limerick Location" and Cork names were pretty common
there. too. Not surprising since many of the Irish in the Copper
Country were from the Beara Peninsula
mining district in County Cork. In any event, something to investigate.


Bill Mulligan

From: WallsAMP[at]aol.com

A number of overlapping issues:

1. County associations were clearly formed by Irish people in the
1950s/60s,
and are still in existence, but why young people then (and not now)
formed
these on the basis of county identities is possibly a matter for further

research.

2. I don't know if people have problems resolving the different
'boundaries'
they inhabit. I come from Magherafelt which is a town, a district and a
parish. But the actual geographical space these inhabit vary greatly.
It's
part of the diocese of Armagh and the county of Derry. Electorally it
has
swung back recently from East Londonderry (sic) to Mid-Ulster. People
from
this area distinguish themselves from others in the county by having a
south
Derry identity. Whatever associations are made on the basis of place
seem to
me to more or less depend on the context and who you perceive yourself
as
different from in that context.

3. I heard an interesting seminar a few years ago at the SSRU in London.

Deirdre Fullerton who I think is now in the university of ulster showed
drawings which Catholic and Protestant children made of 'their country'.

Catholic children drew elaborate maps of Ireland with all 32 counties
named,
whereas Protestant children tended to draw Northern Ireland either
adrift
(missing the Republic) or physically attached to Britain/England. They
did
not as far as I remember allude to counties at all. So this would
suggest
that counties are important to Catholics there, but maybe not Protestant

(children).

4. Worse than counties are provinces. Ulster is the most talked about
but
even then it differs depending on who you are - Northern Catholics know
it
covers more than 6 counties whereas Unionist politicians would have us
believe it mapped neatly onto Northern Ireland. I recently was asked by
a man
in Gloucestershire where was the town of Munster. Now this led to an
complex
discussion. Again, as with counties, these associations probably mean
something to people, but their meaning only emerges in specific contexts
in
opposition to others. Which probably raises the question of
oppositions/identities within Ireland which are taken abroad but not
usually
addressed in the study of the Irish diaspora.

5. I did some research a while back in Glasgow and it is clear that
there,
Donegal Irish regard themselves as different from (and incidentally the
numerically
largest of) both current and past migrations. However, in interviews, it
was
made clear to me that more important that coming from Donegal was what
part
of Donegal. I was told that teams of men who worked together often would
only
work with men from the same townlands, etc. This was more important than

being with other Irish or other Donegal people.

6. All this may lead to the depressing conclusion that forming
associations
with all the positive benefits of this for members, of necessity
excludes
those who don't belong. And this may lead to not so positive outcomes.

7. To broaden it out, the same issues of the specifics of place occur
among
people in Scotland and England. But don't know how important they are
abroad..

Paddy Walls

From: "anthony"
Subject: RE: Ir-D Loyalty to Irish counties 2

I have come across exhortations from mid C19 Irish journalists in
England to their fellow migrants to forget their local identities and to
see themselves as simply Irish, which was how, the argument went, the
(usually hostile) host community saw them. This was particularly with
reference to Ulster people but also a reaction I think to factionalism
elsewhere at home. Most Irish journalism from mid century on attempted
to weld the Irish in Britain into a unified political block, so perhaps
the vehicle for such local organisations was lacking. The press
certainly acted as a unifying mechanism, a clearing house of ideas and
communication for other political and cultural bodies, including things
like the National Brotherhood of St Patrick, burial societies and
teetotal groups etc.

Anthony McNicholas
Research Fellow
University of Westminster
0118 948 6164 (BBC Written Archive Centre)
07751 062735 (mobile)


- -----Original Message-----


From: Don MacRaild
Subject: RE: Ir-D Loyalty to Irish counties

There is a piece, I recall, on county associations in New York (Bayor
and Meagher's excellent New York Irish, published by Johns Hopkins UP).
Paddy wrote a reflection on the very issue on for the IR-D list some
time ago. Perhaps it's in the archives, now?

It's a mystery why the Irish in 19th century Britain don't evoke
memories of homeland by forming county associations -- could it be
because they could (and did) travel back to their home counties more
easily than their American cousins?


Don MacRaild
Northumbria

From: Brian Lambkin
To: "'irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk'"
Subject: RE: Ir-D Contact, Cultural Education & Diaspora

A useful person to contact in connection with the Northern Ireland
Citizenship Education Project would be Lorraine Heffernan UNESCO Centre
School of Education University of Ulster Coleraine BT52 1SA Northern
Ireland l.heffernan[at]ulst.ac.uk

Brian Lambkin


Dr B K Lambkin
Director
Centre for Migration Studies
Ulster-American Folk Park
Castletown, Omagh, Co Tyrone, N. Ireland
BT 78 5QY
Tel: 028 82 256315 Fax: 028 82 242241
www.qub.ac.uk/cms www.folkpark.com

From:
To: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Ir-D Loyalty to Irish counties 6



Don
Perhaps the simplest way of identifying/contacting contemporary Irish
county associations is by reference to Clare Barrington's Shades Of
Green Directory of the Irish in Britain (Smurfit Media, 2000), available
from The Irish Post, which lists entries in alphabetical order.

In recent years many of these have been in decline for obvious reasons
but the dynamism of the GAA has ensured that county loyalties in
Ireland, whether formalised abroad or not, are if anything stronger than
ever.

Best

Ultan Cowley











irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk wrote:


< Subject: Ir-D Loyalty to Irish counties 4
<
< I'm beginning to see this is a gap in my knowledge. News is coming in
of < county associations in various parts of Britain. Not sure whether
we are < talking 19thC or 20thC, or both. So, off to do some more
reading .... < Thanks to Paddy Walls; and also to Joe Bradley who sent
me an email < pointing out Scottish examples. <
< Don MacRaild
<
<
< -----Original Message-----
<
< From: WallsAMP[at]aol.com
< Subject: Re: Ir-D Loyalty to Irish counties 2
<
< There are quite a number of county associations in different parts of
< Britain
< listed in Shades of Green: A directory of the Irish in Britain (Clare

< Barrington). It seems that most of these were formed in the 50s and <
early
< 60s. A period of very high emigration.
<
< It seems therefore that county 'loyalty' was (still is) important to
< some
< Irish people in Britain.
<
< Paddy Walls
<
<

From: Hilary Robinson
Subject: Re: Ir-D Contact, Cultural Education & Diaspora 2

Two others are Prof Brian Graham, director, Academy for Irish
Cultural Heritages, and Prof John Wilson, director, Institute for
Ulster Scots. They work closely together, and are involved with
border projects, issues of identity & identification, diaspora
projects, etc.
Both at:
University of Ulster, Magee Campus
Northland Road, L'derry
Northern Ireland
BT48 7JL

Hilary


At 6:16 pm +0000 9/1/03, irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk wrote:
>From: Brian Lambkin
>To: "'irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk'"
>Subject: RE: Ir-D Contact, Cultural Education & Diaspora
>
>A useful person to contact in connection with the Northern Ireland
>Citizenship Education Project would be Lorraine Heffernan UNESCO Centre

>School of Education University of Ulster Coleraine BT52 1SA Northern
>Ireland l.heffernan[at]ulst.ac.uk
>
>Brian Lambkin


- --
Professor Hilary Robinson
Head of School
School of Art and Design
University of Ulster
York Street
Belfast
BT15 1ED

From: patrick maume
Subject: Re: Ir-D Loyalty to Irish counties 8

From: Patrick Maume
One source of county identities might be electoral/political
mobilisation - each county was a parliamentary constituency
returning two MPs until 1885, and county councils were formed in
1899. Present-day Dail constituencies try to avoid crossing
county boundaries (though they may lump two counties together or
subdivide a county). At the recent Dail elections in
Carlow-Kilkenny there was a campaign which tried to get Carlow
electors to vote for Carlow candidates irrespective of party, on
the grounds that if no Carlow-based TD was elected the county's
interests would be overlooked..
Best wishes,
Patrick

From Email Patrick O'Sullivan

Returning to Neil Collins' query...

Historians often comment on the apparent oddity of this intense local
loyalty to the Irish counties. For the 'shiring' of Ireland is one
obvious survival of English rule. The English, of course, could never
get the shire system to work properly in Ireland - absentee landlords,
don't y' know...

The intensity of county loyalty in present day Ireland - particulary in
the area of sport - hovers on the edge of the bizarre. It is like
Chesterton's Napoleon of Notting Hill, with flags, banners, emblems, and
a language of arcane historical reference. (I speak here as someone who
has never quite understood sport - for example, it seems to me
unsurprising that one person can run faster than another...)

I know of no survey of this loyalty to county. We track quite a number
of databases and bibliographies - but it is always possible that we
might have missed something. But it is not the sort of issue that Irish
academic social science is interested in. If I were to sit down with
the methodologists to plan such a survey I might suggest that the
easiest way to do it would be to get in touch with the
importer/manufacturer of flags, and look at sales of particular colour
patterns. And maybe work out a ratio, flags per population of county.
(I say importer, because these flags look to me like commercialisation
of European traditions - like the flags of the contradas of Siena...)

Don MacRaild draws attention to my review of Bayor & Meagher, New York
Irish. The review is on the web sites - at www.irishdiaspora.net it is
in the folder called Book Reviews. I drew attention to John Ridge's
chapter, 'Irish County Societies in New York, 1880-1914', because in
fact it was the only piece of scholarship I had seen about the county
societies, and which recognised that they were important and
interesting.

(On a train of thought, John Ridge has a quote from Asbury, Gangs of NY,
on the Kerryonians, a gang who did little fighting and devoted
themselves exclusively to hating the English...)

My impression is that throughout the Irish Diaspora the county societies
are dwindling, and disappearing. We could talk about this at length,
and the particular generations that valued and used that kind of
organisation. We have been tending to assume that a measure of county
societies is a measure of county loyalty...

We have heard stories of local county society records and archives
disappearing into skips (dumpsters), with the deaths of key members. I
still shudder when I recall David Fitzpatrick's account of the discovery
on a tip of the archives of the Orange Order of NSW. Here in England
Siobhan Maguire is doing brave work, contacting elderly members of the
Irish polotical organisations, to plan for the inevitable future. I do
hope other people are doing similar work to save the files of the county
associations.

Paddy


- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit

Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Email Patrick O'Sullivan
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Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Social Sciences and Humanities
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England

From: Kerby Miller
Subject: Re: Ir-D Loyalty to Irish counties 8

Is any of this relevant to the bitter fights between the "Far Downs"
and "Corkonians" on U.S. canals and other public work sites in the
early 19th century, I wonder? I vaguely recall a Diaspora list
discussion of the origins of this conflict (and of the term, "Far
Downs"), but I don't recall any definitive conclusions.
Kerby




>From: Peter Hart
>Subject: Re: Ir-D Loyalty to Irish counties 6
>
>My own research on republicans in 20C Britain suggests that the most
>significant mental boundaries lay between those born in Britain and
>those who migrated in as (more or less) adults - to the disadvantage
>and frustration of the British-born contingent, needless to say. Even
>more striking, though, was the division between those in London,
>northern England and Scotland. Republicans in these regions sometimes
>found it very difficult to work together, with everyone else resentful
>of the Londoners' pretensions to leadership. One intrpretation of
>this, of course, is that it simply replicated British tensions - a
>fascinating melding of identities. I don't know if anyone else has
>found anytihng similar?
>
>In Newfoundland and elsewhere in Canada and the U.S., at least before
>the Famine, the most important factional dividing line seems to have
>been that between Leinster and Munster. This apparently declined in
>the 2nd half of the century, though. I'm sure others can say much more

>on this than me.
>
>Much recent work on the old I.R.A. - my own and others' - has stressed
>the salience of county loyalties to guerrillas and their units. A
>possible reflection of G.A.A. loyalties, but the role of the G.A.A. in
>manning the movement can easily be overstated. This did not preclude
>intra-county rivalries or inter-county alliances, of course, but it did

>have a powerful influence at times. Hence the notorious domination of
>the revolutionary movement by the greatest county of them all: in fact
>I've been thinking of writing a book entitled `When Cork ruled
>Ireland'....
>
>Peter
>>

From: "John McGurk"
To:
Subject: Re: Ir-D Loyalty to Irish counties 16

From John McGurk
jjnmcg[at]eircom.net

I was hoping someone would bring up the question of baronies in this
fascinating discussion of loyalties to counties. Now for example, the
first extensive but inaccurate map of Mayo was a military map drawn up
in 1584 by John Browne of the Neale for Sir Richard Bingham, ancestor of
the earls of Lucan - still looking for the last earl of Lucan around
Castlebar to give him back dated rents-. The map shows the baronies in a
marginal note and it depicts the barony of Ross as being in the county
of Mayo which is much disputed by the county of Galway. The Local Gov.
Act of 1898 put the barony of Ross into Mayo county, but unbelievably
not' All of It' according to local historians- so things are not what
they seem and we have here no lasting city. Maybe Spenser was right in
claiming that the very earth of Ireland was unstable!

John McGurk- in the barony of Ross -in the county of Mayo ( or Galway) !

- ----- Original Message -----
>
> From:
> Subject: Re: Ir-D Loyalty to Irish counties 15
>
> What was the impact of old-style baronies on present day county
> boundaries? I know of parishes on the Tipperary/Offaly border who
> still have issues with their true county identify.
>
> I was also under the impression that dioceses had to have some sea
> frontage in olden days thus leading to some of them having unusual
> boundaries etc.
>
> James.
>

From:
Subject: Re: Ir-D Loyalty to Irish counties 15

What was the impact of old-style baronies on present day county
boundaries? I know of parishes on the Tipperary/Offaly border who still
have issues with their true county identify.

I was also under the impression that dioceses had to have some sea
frontage in olden days thus leading to some of them having unusual
boundaries etc.

James.

--- irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk wrote:

>
> From: patrick maume
> Subject: Re: Ir-D Loyalty to Irish counties 8
>
> From: Patrick Maume
> One source of county identities might be electoral/political
> mobilisation - each county was a parliamentary constituency
> returning two MPs until 1885, and county councils were formed in
> 1899. Present-day Dail constituencies try to avoid crossing
> county boundaries (though they may lump two counties together or
> subdivide a county). At the recent Dail elections in
> Carlow-Kilkenny there was a campaign which tried to get Carlow
> electors to vote for Carlow candidates irrespective of party, on
> the grounds that if no Carlow-based TD was elected the county's
> interests would be overlooked..
> Best wishes,
> Patrick
>