From:
Subject: Re: Ir-D Query, Irish marriage patterns

Well an anthropologist might say it's nothing to do
with ethnicity but rather gender. Women may choose a
mate who is most likely to provide for them and their offspring. If
there is a certain amount of economic equity among male and female Irish
migrants (and in the period being researched it could be argued that
both genders are fleeing from poverty and famine and
therefore economically equal) the Irish woman in
America may need to go outside of her ethnic group to
find a male who can take care of her better than she
can take care of herself.

Dymphna Lonergan

=====
Go raibh tú daibhir i mí-áidh/May you be poor in ill-luck
Agus saibhir i mbeannachtaí/rich in blessings
Go mall ag déanamh namhaid/slow to make enemies
go luath a déanamh carad/quick to make friends

From:
To: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Ir-D Why an Irishman gave his life 4

When I joined the Royal Air Force, as a 'Boy Entrant' of fifteen, in
1961, there was a high proportion of Republic-born men and women already
in service with the RAF.

There were far more in the British Army, which had lower enlistment
requirements than the RAF, but I know nothing of the Navy.

In my billet of twenty beds in basic training camp, no fewer than twelve
were occupied by Irishmen. I can't believe that until now no
Republic-born Irish serviceman has died in British uniform since WW11.

Ultan Cowley











irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk wrote:



< Subject: Re: Ir-D Why an Irishman gave his life 4
<
< I had the same reaction as Patrick Maume: the claim that Lance
Corporal < Ian Malone of Ballyfermot was the first citizen of the
Republic to die < in combat with the British Army since World War II is
just not credible. <
< Especially given the numerous "small wars" (Malaya, Cyprus, Aden,
Yemen, < Kenya, Korea, etc.) in which Britain was involved post-1945,
combined < with the proclivity of Irish men to seek out adventure,
action, or the < economic security of a steady paycheck and the
proverbial "three < squares" per day. <
< A updated and digitized version of Lt. Col. H. Hamill's history of
the < Royal Ulster Rifles in Korea (originally published by Wm. Mullan
& Son, < Ltd. Donegall Place, Belfast, 1953), can be downloaded from
the RUR < Museum's home page at http://rurmuseum.tripod.com/library.htm
<
< Although the regiment (actually its 1st Battalion) suffered heavy <
casualties, and was known to include recruits from both sides of the <
Border (as well as elsewhere in the UK), there are no places of birth <
included on its casualty list. <
< I'm not aware of any other study of Irish involvement in the <
aforementioned conflicts, but found this in Myles Dungan's _Distant <
Drums: Irish Soldiers in Foreign Armies_(Belfast: Appletree Press,1993),
< p. 181: <
< "In May 1982, three Irish members of the secretive British SAS
(Special < Air < Services) were killed in the Falklands, one from
Northern Ireland, one < from Donegal and the other from Tipperary.
Their Sea King helicopter < crashed, killing eighteen members of the
SAS, a regiment which two < Irishmen, Colonel Blair Mayne (a former
rugby international) and Ambrose < McGonigal (a future High Court
judge) helped found." <
< Brian McGinn
< Alexandria, Virginia
< bmcginn2[at]earthlink.net
<
<
<

From: patrick maume
Sender: P.Maume[at]Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
To: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Ir-D SSNCI Conferences 2


From: Patrick Maume
Kerby's suggestion is certainly interesting and worth taking
into account. (I should say, though, that I have suggested
doing "Nineteenth-Century Ireland and Empire", which might cover
relations with Europe and empires and US expansionism as well as
the British Empire. There seems to be a renewal of interest in
the subject of empire at the moment, & it's a nice broad theme.)
I have done a little dabbling in this area myself and I find
it amazing how much nineteenth-century Protestant and/or Unionist
source material never gets looked at at all. The Dublin EVENING
MAIL, for example, was one of the principal Irish papers from
1827 to 1960 but no-one ever seems to work on it - I saw some of
its weekly editions when I was doing a little research on
Standish O'Grady last year, and was struck by the light it sheds
on Tory and pro-landlord attitudes. I was lecturing on the Land
War in first semester, and loved to acquaint my students with
its diatribes about "the sacrifice of Irish property and
loyalty" by Mr. Gladstone's extension of "household, or rather
mud-hut franchise" to Ireland, and its complaints that an
evicted widow had been guilty of "unpardonable cruelty for the
sake of political propaganda" because she kept her children out
in the open overnight rather than taking them to the workhouse,
which the landlords were taxed so heavily to maintain. "Why
should she be allowed to live rent-free on someone else's
property?" it thundered.
In the same area, I've edited a reprint of a pro-Cooke account
(by the publisher William McComb) of Daniel O'Connell's 1841
visit to Belfast and Henry Cooke's denunciations of repeal as a
danger to Protestantism, liberty, and the Belfast economy. It's
coming out in June from UCD Press's CLASSICS OF IRISH HISTORY
series, and should be useful to anyone intersted in following up
some of the isues raised by Kerby Miller.
Best wishes,
Patrick

On 09 April 2003 05:59 irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk wrote:

>
>
> From: Kerby Miller
> Subject: Re: Ir-D SSNCI Conferences, Belfast & Chicago
>
> Dear Margaret Kelleher, Leon Litvak, and James Murphy,
>
> I suggest that your Chicago conference might stimulate
> research on the Protestant communities and political cultures of
> 19th-century Ireland, and on their relationships with Irish
> Catholics, generally, and with Irish nationalism. One negative
> consequence of the dominant "two traditions" paradigm is that the
> emergence after 1798/1800 of a pan-Protestant, cross-class Unionist
> bloc has been taken for granted as "natural" and "inevitable"
> (likewise, I think the same assumption has held for the emergence of
> "Scots-Irishness"--vs. the Catholic "Irish"--in 19th-century
> America). Although revisionist scholars have expended great effort
> in dissecting and deconstructing Irish nationalist movements and
> Irish Catholic society, generally, along social, ideological, and
> other fault lines, they have not paid like attention to similar
> divisions, tensions, and conflicts within Irish Protestant
> communities or to the perhaps-hegemonic processes by which Unionism
> gained ascendancy. On the question of Protestant-Catholic
> relationships, it is equally remarkable, for example, that, to my
> knowledge, no historians have examined the Dolly's Brae, Co. Down,
> confrontation of 1849, although that was the single most bloody and
> lethal incident in Irish history between 1798 or 1803 and 1916.
>
> However, and as you probably know, David Miller is working on
> what will be an exceptionally important book on Ulster Presbyterian
> society, religion, and the Famine. Also, I've published demographic
> and other data--in an EIRE-IRELAND article (Spring/Summer 2001) and
> in my new IRISH IMMIGRANTS IN THE LAND OF CANAAN--that questions the
> "two traditions" paradigm in various ways. However, there's a vast
> amount of important work still to be done--and much not even
> begun--and perhaps the focus of your forthcoming conference could
> serve as a stimulus or a showcase or both for such work.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Kerby Miller
> University of Missouri-Columbia
>

From: "Brian McGinn"
To:
Subject: Re: Ir-D Why an Irishman gave his life 4

I had the same reaction as Patrick Maume: the claim that Lance Corporal
Ian Malone of Ballyfermot was the first citizen of the Republic to die
in combat with the British Army since World War II is just not credible.

Especially given the numerous "small wars" (Malaya, Cyprus, Aden, Yemen,
Kenya, Korea, etc.) in which Britain was involved post-1945, combined
with the proclivity of Irish men to seek out adventure, action, or the
economic security of a steady paycheck and the proverbial "three
squares" per day.

A updated and digitized version of Lt. Col. H. Hamill's history of the
Royal Ulster Rifles in Korea (originally published by Wm. Mullan & Son,
Ltd. Donegall Place, Belfast, 1953), can be downloaded from the RUR
Museum's home page at http://rurmuseum.tripod.com/library.htm

Although the regiment (actually its 1st Battalion) suffered heavy
casualties, and was known to include recruits from both sides of the
Border (as well as elsewhere in the UK), there are no places of birth
included on its casualty list.

I'm not aware of any other study of Irish involvement in the
aforementioned conflicts, but found this in Myles Dungan's _Distant
Drums: Irish Soldiers in Foreign Armies_(Belfast: Appletree Press,1993),
p. 181:

"In May 1982, three Irish members of the secretive British SAS (Special
Air
Services) were killed in the Falklands, one from Northern Ireland, one
from Donegal and the other from Tipperary. Their Sea King helicopter
crashed, killing eighteen members of the SAS, a regiment which two
Irishmen, Colonel Blair Mayne (a former rugby international) and Ambrose
McGonigal (a future High Court judge) helped found."

Brian McGinn
Alexandria, Virginia
bmcginn2[at]earthlink.net

Subject: Re: Ir-D Query, Irish marriage patterns
From: "DALE LIGHT JR"

Dear Patrick and Laura,

The answer to the query regarding differential exogamy levels is rather
simple. The instability of the nineteenth century workforce required
that young men move frequently to secure employment. By contrast women's
work was relatively stable enabling them to persist over time within a
given community. Over time this resulted in dramatic sex imbalances in
urban areas. I don't have the statistics for Philadelphia in front of me
but can summarize them roughly. Between 1850 and 1880 the ratio of men
to women declined from about .970 to about .700 in the age group 15-35.
In other words by 1880 there were roughly three marriageable women among
Philadelphia's Irish for every two men. In this situation many women, if
they hoped to find a marriage partner, had to look outside the group. I
presume that the same pattern obtained in New Orleans, although it was
probably not so severe. The ratio of men to women tended to even out and
even reverse itself as you move westward. As I remember them the exogamy
rates for Philadelphia Irish women were a bit higher than those you cite
for New Orleans. I would also emphasize that older men tended to be more
residentially and occupationally persistent than young men and that the
floating labor pool was strongly age-biased.

In my current work I emphasize the overwhelming importance of
residential persistence for participation in immigrant community
structures. In a very real sense occupational and residential stability
were prerequisites for nearly everything, from marriage to attainment of
full adult status, to partipitaion in ethnic organizations, etc. It is a
simple fact of immense importance for understanding the functioning of
immigrant communities in the nineteenth century, many features of which
can best be understood as mechanisms for ensuring stability. As I like
to put it, the goal of most immigrant Irish men was social stability,
not mobility. Hope this is helpful.

Dale Light

ps: I participated in developing a similar database for nineteenth
century Philadelphia in the 1970's. Unfortunately technological change
has rendered the raw data unreadable today, but the summary statistics
are still available. I can point you to them if you like.

On Wed, 09 Apr 2003 05:59:00 +0000, irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk wrote:

>
>
> >From Email Patrick O'Sullivan
>
> The following query has been sent to us by Laura Kelley of Tulane
> University...
>
> P.O'S.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: kelleyld[at]tulane.edu
> Sent: 09 April 2003 01:51
> To: osullivan[at]irishdiaspora.net
> Subject: Query
>
>
> Patrick O'Sullivan,
>
> One of the members of the list serve H-Albion suggested I contact to
> with the following query I posted on that list-
>
> I have been researching Catholic marriage records of Irish immigrants
> (1840- 1860)and have found that in general the Irish married other
> Irish
> - no major surprise. However, the rate of Irish women marrying outside
> of the group was much higher than Irish men marrying other non-Irish
> persons - the rates were roughly 9 percent for the women and 3 percent
> for the men. Is this a normal trend for the Irish or immigrants in
> general? Do women more often marry outside of their ethnic and/or
> religious group? If so, what does that imply? Any suggestions re
current
> research or articles pertaining to this matter would also be very
> helpful.
>
>
> Information I did not mention in the post but you may find relevant is

> the following -
>
> I created a database which contains every single Irish immigrant and
> their family members (Irish born and US/foreign born)listed in the
> 1850 US Census for
> New Orleans. Recognizing the fact that the Census was/is not perfect,
it
> does
> however, provide a much more detailed picture of the Irish in New
> Orleans than
> a random sampling. I have also created other databases re the Irish,
and
> on
> this basis alone, can refute the idea that for my time period -
> 1840-1860- Irish
> women did not outnumber Irish men in New Orleans, the second largest
> port in
> Antebellum America. Many people have responded to my post stating that
> Irish
> women married outside of their ethnic/religious group due to the lack
of
>
> available men. What if that was not the case? What else does the
> information imply?
>
> If the members of the Irish-Diaspora list have a moment to spare and
> could give me any insights on this matter I would greatly appreciate
> it.
>
> Thank you very much,
>
> Laura D. Kelley
>
> Ph.D. Candidate
> History Dept.
> Tulane University
> New Orleans, LA
>
>
>

From: "Sarah Morgan"
To:
Subject: Re: Ir-D Irish marriage patterns 7

In twentieth century Britain, we (see below) found that there appear to
be more second generation people with Irish-born fathers only than with
Irish-born mothers only. This is based on 1991 Census data and confirmed
by General Household Survey data. As Irish-born women in Britain have
out-numbered Irish-born men until quite recently, this is surprising and
interesting. Is it because Irish women were less likely to have
children; or did Irish men have children with more than one partner?

This snippet of info is from a publication by Hickman, M.J., Morgan, S.
and Walter, B. 2001 'Second Generation Irish People in Britain: a
demographic, socio-economic and health profile', which is available free
(as a publication; cannot say for postage) from the Irish Studies
Centre, London Metropolitan University (formerly University of North
London). The centre can be contacted on +44 (0)20 7753 5018.

Sarah Morgan.

- ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Richard Jensen"
> To:
> Subject: Fw: Fw: Ir-D Irish marriage patterns 5
>
> From: "Daniel Scott Smith"
>
> Tell them to crosstab birthplaces of husbands and wives and the 1850
> and 1860 IPUMS 1% samples. http://www.ipums.umn.edu/usa/ If you want
> to be reallyyyyyyyyyyy demographic, you could worry about the effect
> of the difference in age of marriageable people--this would be
> partcularly important for the 2nd generation. --Dan Smith
>
>
>
>

From: "Richard Jensen"
To:
Subject: Fw: Fw: Ir-D Irish marriage patterns 5

From: "Daniel Scott Smith"

Tell them to crosstab birthplaces of husbands and wives and the 1850 and
1860 IPUMS 1% samples. http://www.ipums.umn.edu/usa/ If you want to be
reallyyyyyyyyyyy demographic, you could worry about the effect of the
difference in age of marriageable people--this would be partcularly
important for the 2nd generation. --Dan Smith

From: Robert Grace
Subject: Irish Marriage Patterns

from: Robert Grace

In my work on the Irish population of Quebec City (1842-1861), I also
found that Irish women outnumbered Irish men especially among young
adults. Dale Light's explanation concerning the mobile Irish male
certainly applies in the case of Quebec. Over the winter 1860-1861, the
families of over 400 Irish ship labourers indicated in the census that
the latter were working in the southern U.S., many in New Orleans.

Also, while a mere 3 per cent of Irish Catholic men took Protestant
wives, over 15 per cent of Irish Protestant men married Catholic women.
Not entirely surprising in a population that was over 85 per cent
Catholic.

Robert Grace

From: "Sarah Morgan"
To:
Subject: Neighbours: Irish in Australia

At the moment, there is an Irish character in Neighbours (an
Australian-made day-time soap) called Conor. Apparently, he is
illiterate but has had the good fortune to have been taken in by his
girlfriend's father and given a job. Workmates at the job (he is a
construction supervisor) are resentful and Conor has been reported to
immigration. Comments have been made at the worksite about Irish
scroungers.

I wonder if any colleagues in Australia (or elsewhere) would comment on
this story line? Australia has become a more attractive destination for
young Irish people; what has the reaction been?

Sarah Morgan.

Subject: Re: Traditional music conference
From: Fintan Vallely
To:


Crosbhealach an Cheoil -
www.cros2003.com email mail[at]cros2003.com
the Crossroads Conference 2003

Friday 25th April - Sunday 27th April,

University of Ulster, Magee campus, Northland
Road, Derry

Theme - Education in Traditional music

UPDATED PROGRAMME OF PAPERS AND EVENTS

Friday 25th April, 2003
7.30 pm - Opening: Introduction - Fintan Vallely
Welcome to delegates by Bob Welch, Dean of Arts University of Ulster
8.00 - 8.45 pm, Keynote 1 Philip Bohlman (University of Chicago) 8.45 -
9.30 pm, Keynote 2 Caomhín Mac Aoidh (Ballyshannon, Cairdeas na
bhFhidléirí)
9.30 pm - club / session at Sandino's

Saturday 26th April
9.00 am ­ 11.00 Session 1- 4 papers
1 - Education and Children (plenary)
Chair - Nicholas Carolan (Dublin, Irish traditional Music Archive).
Speakers: Barry Burgess (University of Ulster); Eithne Vallely; John
Moulden; Séamus
Mac Mathúna & Siobhán Ní Chonaráin.

11.00 - 11.30 coffee

11.30 - 1.00 - Session 2 - 2 parallel sessions, 3 Papers in each
2-A- Approaches and technologies
Chair - Colette Moloney (Waterford Institute of Technology).
Speakers: Paul McGettrick (Dundalk IT); Karen Marshalsay (Glasgow,
RSAMD); Conall
Ó Gráda (Cork, ScoilTrad);

2-B - Traditional music context and application
Chair - Liz Doherty (Buncrana).
Speakers: ; Tess Slominski (Virginia, USA); Bob Newton (Wisconsin, USA),
Sally
Sommers Smith (Boston, USA);

1.00 ­ 2.00 lunch

2.00-3.30 pm - Session 3 - 2 parallel sessions, 3 Papers in each

3-A- Adult learning & community appreciation
Chair - Caomhín Mac Aoidh (Cairdeas na bhFhidléirí, Ballyshannon).
Speakers: Frank Claudy (Baltimore, USA), Stan Reeves (Scotland), Barry
Taylor
(Clare),

3-B - Neighbours and exiles
Chair Fintan Vallely. Speakers: Margaret Bennett (Scotland), Cinzia
Curtis (Isle of Man),
Johanne Trew (Canada / Newfoundland).

3.30pm ­ 4.00 coffee

4.00 ­ 6.00 Session 4 - 4 papers
4- Folk Musics In Third Level - The Experience Abroad (plenary) Chair -
Desi Wilkinson (Belfast / Mary Immaculate College, Limerick).
Speakers: Gunnar Stubseid (Telemark, Norway), Jo Miller (RSAMD,
Glasgow), Alistair
Anderson (University of Newcastle on Tyne, England), Pierre Crépillon
(Academe de
Rennes, Brittany / France)
6.00 ­ 6.30 discussion

6.30 Close of day's proceedings

7.00pm sharp, Conference speakers' dinner

8.00pm-10.00pm - Performance in Verbal Arts Centre
10.00pm - 1am - Sandino's - music session and social

SUNDAY
9.30am ­ 11.30 am ­ Session 5 - 2 parallel sessions, 4 papers in each
5-A - Instrument-specific teaching Chair - Eithne Vallely (Armagh
Pipers' Club).
Speakers: Michael Coyne (Ennis, Na Piobairí Uilleann), Janet Harbison
(The Harp
Foundation), Matt Cranitch (Cork); .Muiris Ó Róchain (Miltown Malbay)
5-B - Foci and methods of Teaching Chair - Martin Dowling (Arts Council
of Northern Ireland).
Speakers: Jimmy O'Brien Moran (Waterford), Mel Mercier (University
College, Cork),
Aibhlín Dillane (University of Limerick); Colette Moloney (Waterford
Institute of
Technology)

11.30 ­ 12.00 coffee

12.00 ­ 1.30pm ­ Session 6 - 2 parallel sessions, 3 papers in each
6- A -Aesthetics & definition
Chair - Paul Mc Gettrick (Dundalk, Institute of Technology).
Speakers: Anthony McCann (Warrenpoint / USA), Frode Nyvold (Norway),
Sean Corcoran (Drogheda, National University of Ireland, Maynooth).
6- B - Education and policy
Chair -Mícheál O Súilleabháin (Irish World Music Centre, University of
Limerick).
Speakers: Marie McCarthy (Dublin/USA), Martin Dowling (Arts Council of
Northern
Ireland, Belfast), Nollaig Ó Fionghaile (An Comhairle Ealaíon / Arts
Council of Ireland)

1.30 pm, Special address - Tom Munnelly (Dept. of Folklore, University
College
Dublin)
Conclusion of conference

www.cros2003.com email mail[at]cros2003.com

From: "William Mulligan Jr."
To:
Subject: RE: Ir-D Irish marriage patterns 3


Patrick Maume's post about Irish Confederate units triggered some
thoughts that may be of interest to those on the list with an interest
in military history.

There were a number of predominantly Irish units in the Confederate
Army; they have not received as much attention as those in the Federal
Army for a variety of reasons. That, however, is beginning to change.
There is, as there always seems to be, the question of just who is Irish
involved in this. One reason for the increasing interest in Irish
Confederates is more attention to Confederate General Patrick Cleburne,
who was born in Co. Cork. Cleburne was Church of Ireland, BTW.

The Louisiana unit Patrick Maume refers to has been the subject of a
book
- - Irish Rebels, Confederate Tigers: A History of the 6th Louisiana
Volunteers by James P. Gannon.

on page iii, "The 6th Louisiana was by no means the only Irish unit
fighting for the South. The Confederate Army included scores of
heavily-Irish units, from companies to regiments, that often bore
colorful names with Celtic flavor: Savannah produced the Irish Jasper
Greens, two companies of the 1st Georgia Volunteer; the Emerald Guards,
a company of the 8th Alabama Infantry, were Irishmen from Mobile;
Charleston produced the Emerald Light Infantry and the Old Irish
Volunteers of the 1st South Carolina regiment. The 10th Tennessee
infantry regiment from Nashville was largely Irish, while the first
Virginia infantry regiment included Irish immigrants from Richmond."

Other Irish units cited by Ed Gleeson in Erin Go Gray! An Irish Rebel
Trilogy are the The Memphis Irish Brigade made up of the 2nd and 21st
Tennessee Infantry regiments and B Company, 3rd Confederate Battalion
Engineer Corps. Gleeson has also written a book about the 10th Tennessee
Infantry, Rebel Sons of Erin.


Bill Mulligan

From Email Patrick O'Sullivan

Forwarded on behalf of
The Institute of Contemporary British History http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/icbh/

Leverhulme Lecture:
Bloody Sunday Inquiry
The 2003 Leverhulme Lecture will be given by Professor Paul Bew on 'The
Bloody Sunday Inquiry: The Role of the Historian'.

The lecture will be held on Thursday 22 May in the Beveridge Hall,
Senate House, University of London, at 5.30pm. Paul Bew is Professor of
Irish Politics at Queen's University, Belfast, and was Historical
Adviser to the Bloody Sunday Inquiry 1998-2002.

From: Daryl Adair
Subject: Re: Ir-D Neighbours: Irish in Australia

Sarah,

I haven't tuned into Neighbours since Kylie and Jason got married. I now
watch Home and Away. Just kidding. Conor's "plight" is certainly
unrepresentative of the typical Irish experience in Australia. The
storyline does appear rather odd.

Daryl Adair
Canberra, Australia

>
>From: "Sarah Morgan"
>To:
>Subject: Neighbours: Irish in Australia
>
>At the moment, there is an Irish character in Neighbours (an
>Australian-made day-time soap) called Conor. Apparently, he is
>illiterate but has had the good fortune to have been taken in by his
>girlfriend's father and given a job. Workmates at the job (he is a
>construction supervisor) are resentful and Conor has been reported to
>immigration. Comments have been made at the worksite about Irish
>scroungers.
>
>I wonder if any colleagues in Australia (or elsewhere) would comment on

>this story line? Australia has become a more attractive destination for

>young Irish people; what has the reaction been?
>
>Sarah Morgan.
>

From: "Avril Keely"
To:
Subject: Re: Ir-D Neighbours: Irish in Australia 2

Don't know about "no-one" but I don't watch it and don't know anyone who
does. This is my first posting to the Ir-D forum having been a lurker
for a couple of months - I had thought of entering on a more elevated
topic but couldn't resist the challenge! Avril

(Dr) Avril ( Vivienne) Keely
Sydney

- ----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 5:59 AM
Subject: Ir-D Neighbours: Irish in Australia 2


>
> From: "Anne-Maree Whitaker"
> To: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: Ir-D Neighbours: Irish in Australia
>
> Sorry, no-one in Australia watches Neighbours.
>
> Dr Anne-Maree Whitaker FRHistS

Subject: Re: Ir-D Irish marriage patterns 7
From: "DALE LIGHT JR"


Excellent suggestion from Dan Smith. I wish I had made it first. By the
way, Dan, what are you working on these days?

Dale Light


On Sun, 13 Apr 2003 05:59:00 +0000, irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk wrote:
>
> From: "Richard Jensen"
> To:
> Subject: Fw: Fw: Ir-D Irish marriage patterns 5
>
> From: "Daniel Scott Smith"
>
> Tell them to crosstab birthplaces of husbands and wives and the 1850
> and 1860 IPUMS 1% samples. http://www.ipums.umn.edu/usa/ If you want
> to be reallyyyyyyyyyyy demographic, you could worry about the effect
> of the difference in age of marriageable people--this would be
> partcularly important for the 2nd generation. --Dan Smith
>
>
[Moderator's Note: Sometimes these messages have to be read with
forensic care. It looks as if Richard Jensen forwarded to Ir-D a
message he had received from Daniel Scott Smith. Dan Smith is not a
member of Ir-D. But I am sure that Dale Light's message will be
forwarded to him, by some route... P.O'S.]

From: "Anne-Maree Whitaker"
To: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Ir-D Neighbours: Irish in Australia

Sorry, no-one in Australia watches Neighbours.

Dr Anne-Maree Whitaker FRHistS
P O Box 63
Edgecliff NSW 2027
Australia
ph (+61-2) 9356 4929 fax (+61-2) 9356 2065
mobile 0408 405 025
email ahcwhitaker[at]hotmail.com
website http://www.geocities.com/joseph_foveaux


- ----Original Message Follows----
From: "Sarah Morgan"
To:
Subject: Neighbours: Irish in Australia

At the moment, there is an Irish character in Neighbours (an
Australian-made day-time soap) called Conor. Apparently, he is
illiterate but has had the good fortune to have been taken in by his
girlfriend's father and given a job. Workmates at the job (he is a
construction supervisor) are resentful and Conor has been reported to
immigration. Comments have been made at the worksite about Irish
scroungers.

I wonder if any colleagues in Australia (or elsewhere) would comment on
this story line? Australia has become a more attractive destination for
young Irish people; what has the reaction been?

Sarah Morgan.

From: "A. O' Grada"
To:
Subject: Neighbours: Irish in Australia

I don't watch Neighbours, but find this a little interesting because I
have seen something similar on All Saints, an Australian hospital drama,
in recent times. A young Irish man( with one of those appalling brogue
accents) featured, and was also illegal. This was discovered after much
story-spinning on his part, and I think that one of the staff actually =
married him in the end so he could stay in Australia. He wasn't
presented 'negatively' in any 'scrounger' sense, but it's an interesting
comparison of how Irish immigrants to Australia are being portrayed, and
is surely worrying if the general representation is one of illegality.

Is this indicative of a social ambiguity of the Irish i.e. if other
non-white groups were represented in this way there would surely be
objections. Perhaps it's not seen as problematic if its in relation to a
'white' group? Can parallels be drawn with the Irish situation in Great
Britain, where the Irish population there fall outside the racialised
category of 'Other' , but are still excluded as 'non-British'. Can it be
said that Irishness occupies an ambiguous space in the unresolved social
order of modernity/postcolonialism etc?

Aifric O' Grada

From: McCaffrey
Subject: Re: Ir-D Neighbours: Irish in Australia 6

I find this point very interesting and relates to a situation I found
myself in here in the US. About eight years ago the Washington Post ran

a story in their Travel section by a columnist who discussed a trip to
Ireland. In the article he described how he met many people who had
'illegal' relatives in the US and how the Irish all seemed to be bent on

getting here by whatever means. He also went on to describe how lazy
the Irish were. It was all meant to be humourous, apparently. I was so
appalled by the article that I sent in a letter to the letters page bu
also sent a copy to the editor of the WP with a cover letter saying that

if they had printed this about a non-white group they would be hauled
up before a race relations commission. Are the Irish safe to attack, I
asked? In return I got a personal letter of apology from the editor who

assured me that this would not happen again. They also printed my letter

as a rebuttal in the Travel section but interestingly left out the name
of the author [I had named him] of the offending piece, only indicating
the article heading.

I do agree that it appears that 'Irishness' does seem to occupy an
ambiguous place where it can seem safe to ridicule and stereotype. Has
anyone complained to the TV stations about this? When Eastenders did a
similar thing, they were inundated with calls at the BBC in London.

Carmel McC

irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk wrote:

>From: "A. O' Grada"
>To:
>Subject: Neighbours: Irish in Australia
>
>Is this indicative of a social ambiguity of the Irish i.e. if other
>non-white groups were represented in this way there would surely be
>objections. Perhaps it's not seen as problematic if its in relation to
>a 'white' group? Can parallels be drawn with the Irish situation in
>Great Britain, where the Irish population there fall outside the
>racialised category of 'Other' , but are still excluded as
>'non-British'. Can it be said that Irishness occupies an ambiguous
>space in the unresolved social order of modernity/postcolonialism etc?
>
>Aifric O' Grada
>

From: patrick maume
Sender: P.Maume[at]Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
To: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Ir-D Neighbours: Irish in Australia 6

From: Patrick Maume
In view of the Howard government's recent policy on asylum
seekers, is it possible that the hospital drama mentioned below
might actually have been trying to make a liberal point - that
tolerance shown to Irish illegal immigrants should be extended
to those of other nationalities?
Best wishes,
Patrick
>
>
> From: "A. O' Grada"
> To:
> Subject: Neighbours: Irish in Australia
>
> I don't watch Neighbours, but find this a little interesting because I

> have seen something similar on All Saints, an Australian hospital
> drama, in recent times. A young Irish man( with one of those appalling

> brogue
> accents) featured, and was also illegal. This was discovered after
much
> story-spinning on his part, and I think that one of the staff actually
=
> married him in the end so he could stay in Australia. He wasn't
> presented 'negatively' in any 'scrounger' sense, but it's an
interesting
> comparison of how Irish immigrants to Australia are being portrayed,
and
> is surely worrying if the general representation is one of illegality.
>
> Is this indicative of a social ambiguity of the Irish i.e. if other
> non-white groups were represented in this way there would surely be
> objections. Perhaps it's not seen as problematic if its in relation to

> a 'white' group? Can parallels be drawn with the Irish situation in
> Great Britain, where the Irish population there fall outside the
> racialised category of 'Other' , but are still excluded as
> 'non-British'. Can it be said that Irishness occupies an ambiguous
> space in the unresolved social order of modernity/postcolonialism etc?
>
> Aifric O' Grada
>
>

----------------------
patrick maume

From:
Subject: Re: Ir-D Neighbours: Irish in Australia 4


Is this the right place to extend the discussion to the characterisation
of the Irish in soaps in general?

I've remember prior discussion of the depiction of the Irish in British
soaps, specifically Coronation Street. Almost always negative to one
degree or another, since the days of Joe Lynch in the early 70's right
through to present and Keith Duffy (ex-Boyzone). Who remembers the
nanny from hell in the early-to mid-90's? Cyril Cusack's daughter.

Thoughts?

James.

--- irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk wrote: >
>
> From: Daryl Adair
> Subject: Re: Ir-D Neighbours: Irish in Australia
>
> Sarah,
>
> I haven't tuned into Neighbours since Kylie and Jason got married. I
> now watch Home and Away. Just kidding. Conor's "plight" is certainly
> unrepresentative of the typical Irish experience in Australia. The
> storyline does appear rather odd.
>
> Daryl Adair
> Canberra, Australia
>