From: Noel Gilzean

Subject: Ir-D Suggestions for a book title?

Milking the System?

Noel Gilzean
Behavioural Sciences
University of Huddersfield
n.a.gilzean[at]hud.ac.uk
01484 472835
http://www.hud.ac.uk/hip/

From: Carmel McCaffrey
Subject: The Dark Side...


I have a serious question for the Ir-D list which I would welcome
discussion on.

Recently I was at a conference on Irish literature here in the US and
the question of 'the greater Ireland' came up. The seminar was led by a
native Irish person and I am myself a native. The subject which we
drifted into was writers of Irish descent and how they treat Ireland and
the Irish. Here in the US I continuously encounter references to the
Irish in negative terms mostly from Irish-Americans who use the term
"Irish' almost always in pejorative terms as in 'my family fights a lot
because we're Irish' or my brother is 'a typical Irish drunk' etc. etc.
The 'American' part of the hyphenation is never used in an equally
negative sense or even to explain these family dysfunctions as in
'I'm/we're this way [violent etc.] because I'm/we're American'. This
attitude is borne out in many of writings and literature of
Irish-America in a subtle way. I teach Irish studies here and
constantly have to direct students minds away from the negative
stereotypes they carry into the classroom mostly based on what they have
grown up hearing at home. This in spite of the fact that they are
interested/fascinated by Ireland and have a strong identity with it.
Yet the identity seems to be always with the 'dark' side of their
nature.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this aspect of the Diaspora? That
there is a legacy of bad attitudes towards the homeland or it's culture
or is it purely an American phenomenon?

I am not asking this to be shocking in any way or to cause an uproar but
am genuinely interested in a discussion on this as it is something that
I have tried to deal with for a number of years.

Carmel McC

Following our discussions about the Irish in South America - see Brian
McGinn's Study Guide on
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/
- the following message has been forwarded to us, from Art Agnew, the
Irish Ambassador to Argentina.

The Ambassador again draws to our attention the existence of The
Southern Cross on microfilm. Unfortunately the Ambassador does not give
full contact information. I am sure that there are some Ir-D list
members who can help.

P.O'S.



------- Forwarded message follows -------



From: Agnew Art - Ambassador

Subject: Southern Cross
Date: Thursday, June 10, 1999 11:23AM
Priority: High


The Southern Cross microfilms have been mentioned in some of the
communications about the Irish in Latin America.

The Southern Cross is anxious to sell as many copies as possible to
Universities etc. I understand that they cost about US$5000 per set. They
have the whole text for from 1875 onwards. This is of interest not only in
connection with the Irish here, but also in the coverage of events in
Ireland at the various times. The writers here would not be under any
inhibitions when writing about these events (including e.g. the war of
independence) and their attitudes may be of interest even to researchers
interested only in Irish events who are scarcely interested in Latin
America.

You might wish to circulate this 'advertising' message on your links.

Art Agnew

- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Irish-Diaspora list
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/

Personal Fax National 0870 0521605
Fax International +44 870 0521605

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Interdisciplinary Human Studies
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England

From: DanCas1[at]aol.com

Subject: Ir-D Suggestions for a book title?


How about:

"When the Cows Came Home: Cooperation, etc."
or
"Till the Cows Come Home: Cooperation, etc."

I am not sure if "waiting till the cows come home" is just an American
expression, but it could be heard even in the decidedly non-rural Irish
enclaves of NYC in the 1950s.

Daniel Cassidy

From Patrick O'Sullivan

Perhaps as a footnote to Carmel's query... The item which I have pasted
in below has been floating around a number of Irish discussion groups.
The original source was, I think, The Irish Times. I pass it on,
without comment...

P.O'S.



FLORIDA LAWSUIT AMENDED AFTER COMMENTS ON IRISH DRINK-DRIVING
---------------------------------------------------------------
In Florida, a lawsuit suggesting the Irish are prone to drinking is
being amended following controversy on both sides of the Atlantic. A
lawyer representing the family of an Irish woman killed in a road
accident in Florida had said a car rental company should have known her
boyfriend - the driver of the car - would have a high propensity to
drink alcohol because he was from Ireland.

John Stemberger represents the family of Carmel Cunningham, a
24-year-old Irishwoman who died as a result of being injured when the
hired car, driven by her boyfriend, crashed during a holiday with her
children at Disneyworld in Florida. Speaking on RTE Radio 1 Mr
Stemberger apologised for any offence caused by comments he
made about Irish people and drink-driving. He had claimed the company
should have known that the woman's boyfriend - who faces driving under
the influence manslaughter charges - was likely to have drink taken
because of his Irish heritage. His comments have been slammed as racist
and absurd. Mr Stemberger, who admits he has never been to Ireland, says
he had been misunderstood, which is why he is amending his case.

- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Irish-Diaspora list
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/

Personal Fax National 0870 0521605
Fax International +44 870 0521605

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Interdisciplinary Human Studies
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England

From Patrick O'Sullivan

I have only just heard the sad news of the death of J. M. O'Neill, Jerry
O'Neill, 1921-1999, novelist, playwright and publican. Born in
Limerick, O'Neill's own wanderings took him, amongst other places, to
Africa. He was, at one time, the hiring agent for John Murphy, one of
London's biggest Irish building contractors. From 1967 O'Neill was the
landlord of the Duke of Wellington pub, in Islington.

There seems to be no place for writers of the Irish Diaspora like
O'Neill within 'Irish literature' - where 'Irishness' is yet another
'version of pastoral' or a self-reflective literary exercise. O'Neill
wrote of the Irish in London with grim observation, humour and delicacy
- - the funniest moment in Duffy is Dead occurs BETWEEN sentences. You
have to read the page again to notice what has happened - then you laugh
out loud.

He was the novelist and the playwright of London's Irish labourers:
'...a world of kerbside sweat and manpower, open-cut tunnels, timber
shafts looking across a chaos of traffic. Gangs eat in cafes if they
can, wait for the evening of warmth and drink, sleep like the dead until
the alarms explode them into another day...' 'Smashed cadavers pulled
into the daylight, hardly wept over, coffined with raised glasses and
whip-rounds, sent to the limbo cemeteries of Finchley and
Leytonstone...'

In his later years he retired to Limerick. Our sympathies go to his
wife, Mary, and his children. I hope it is some comfort to know how
much we value his work.

Patrick O'Sullivan

- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Irish-Diaspora list
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/

Personal Fax National 0870 0521605
Fax International +44 870 0521605

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Interdisciplinary Human Studies
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England

From: Noel Gilzean

Subject: Ir-D The Dark Side...


I think what Carmel is referring to is one of the aspects of identity that
all 'diasporic communities' who are also positioned by colonial and
post-colonial discourses have to engage with as they negotiate their own
version of national/cultural identity. The Irish identities that we
construct come from somewhere, they have histories and part of this history
is the negative aspects which derive from the colonial experience as Stuart
Hall argues not only were black people seen and positioned in colonial
discourses but these colonial discourses had the power to make them see and
experience themselves as 'Other'. Hall sees identities as " the names we
give to the different ways we are positioned by, and position ourselves
within, the narratives of the past." (Hall 1990 p.225 and in this position
we cannot but be aware of other peoples concepts of Irishness when we
construct our own.

If identity is concerned with difference and similarity then we have to ask
the question who are we similar to and who are we different from? Which
particular aspect of this difference/similarity distinction will become
salient will depend on which group or groups we are comparing ourselves to.
If we are talking about national groups then the relationship between the
countries concerned will probably affect which aspects of similarity or
difference are important. Negative and positive aspects of identity can be
seen as bi-polar and theses aspects can form part of a cluster and to deny a
negative aspect such as drunkenness may be to reject or call into question
more positive aspects such as hospitality, a carefree attitude to life,
emotionality, which can stand in contrast to less desirable qualities such
as formality coldness repression of emotions. I would guess that the use by
"Irish" people of negative aspects of Irishness is more prevalent in those
cultures where anti-Irishness is stripped to a certain extent of its
colonial aspects. Maybe there isn't the same necessity to engage with
post-colonial constructions of Irish identity and therefore for the
individual there is less incentive to detach some of the negative aspects of
ascribed identity from the more positive aspects.

It would be more difficult to acknowledge the negative aspects of the
American part of their identity because it is concerned with similarity
rather than difference. It is possible that the more important aspect of
their Irish-Americanism is that similarity rather than the difference. In
mainland Britain to accept negative aspects of Irishness carries a heavier
cost and would be more likely to be rejected. It would be interesting to
know whether the situation Carmel reports is true of countries such as
Australian or New Zealand where the colonial past is still a relevant aspect
of national culture.

Noel

Noel Gilzean
Behavioural Sciences
University of Huddersfield
n.a.gilzean[at]hud.ac.uk
01484 472835
http://www.hud.ac.uk/hip/

- - Seosamh O'Cuaig, a news presenter with Raidio na Gaeltachta, believes
he has identified the man who was the model for Synge's "Playboy of
the Western World". It has always been known that Synge based his
play on a story he heard on the Aran Islands during his stay there.
O'Cuaig has come across a story in the Galway Express of 1872 which
tells of a police hunt in the Aran Islands for a man named William
O'Malley, wanted for the murder of his father. According to the
story in the Galway Express, O'Malley killed his father with a blow
from a loy - the weapon mentioned in the play. Synge was born in
1871 and heard the story 30 years later.


Item taken from the IRISH EMIGRANT

The Irish Emigrant Ltd, | Liam Ferrie
Cathedral Building, Middle Street, | Tel: 353-91-569158
Galway, | Fax: 353-91-569178
Ireland | Email: ferrie[at]emigrant.ie


- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Irish-Diaspora list
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/

Personal Fax National 0870 0521605
Fax International +44 870 0521605

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Interdisciplinary Human Studies
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England

From: ultan cowley
Subject: Ir-D J. M. O'Neill


Dear Paddy,
I was unaware of Jerry O'Neill's writings and work history. Its
a pity no one tipped me off about him/them during the five years I've been
researching the history of the Irish in British construction.
I am sorry to hear of his death - on account of own work, obviously, but
also because he might have wished to contribute his own unique insider's
perspective to the story...

Could you either give me some details of his publications or, if they're
out of print, lend me a copy of the work you refer to below?

I'm struggling to get the book finished before heading off to France for a
family holiday from June 19 to July 3. There may however be opportunities
to amend or add to the text before it goes to press.

Regards,
Ultan


>
>From Patrick O'Sullivan
>
>I have only just heard the sad news of the death of J. M. O'Neill, Jerry
>O'Neill, 1921-1999, novelist, playwright and publican. Born in
>Limerick, O'Neill's own wanderings took him, amongst other places, to
>Africa. He was, at one time, the hiring agent for John Murphy, one of
>London's biggest Irish building contractors. From 1967 O'Neill was the
>landlord of the Duke of Wellington pub, in Islington.
>
>There seems to be no place for writers of the Irish Diaspora like
>O'Neill within 'Irish literature' - where 'Irishness' is yet another
>'version of pastoral' or a self-reflective literary exercise. O'Neill
>wrote of the Irish in London with grim observation, humour and delicacy
>- the funniest moment in Duffy is Dead occurs BETWEEN sentences. You
>have to read the page again to notice what has happened - then you laugh
>out loud.
>
>He was the novelist and the playwright of London's Irish labourers:
>'...a world of kerbside sweat and manpower, open-cut tunnels, timber
>shafts looking across a chaos of traffic. Gangs eat in cafes if they
>can, wait for the evening of warmth and drink, sleep like the dead until
>the alarms explode them into another day...' 'Smashed cadavers pulled
>into the daylight, hardly wept over, coffined with raised glasses and
>whip-rounds, sent to the limbo cemeteries of Finchley and
>Leytonstone...'
>
>In his later years he retired to Limerick. Our sympathies go to his
>wife, Mary, and his children. I hope it is some comfort to know how
>much we value his work.
>
>Patrick O'Sullivan
>

>
`Its a good life - if you don't weaken!'

From: Kerby Miller
Subject: Ir-D The Dark Side...

Just a few thoughts. I'm sure that others can comment more authoritatively
than I on the internalized effects of the colonial experience in Ireland
and of the struggle to overcome nativist proscription and stereotyping in
America. Quite a few of the Irish Catholic immigrants' letters I've read
express negative attitudes toward Ireland and the Irish; I recall
specifically the letters of two women, Mary Markey in 1880s Chicago and
Maria Sheehan of 1920s Roxbury, commenting viciously about the people in
Ireland being "no good," in part because of their propensity for drink, but
such comments were not restricted to female immigrants, although they may
have been more common among them. Also, both immigrants' letters and the
respondents in the 1950s UCD emigrant folklore collections often remark
that, for good or ill, it was necessary for immigrants to transform their
personalities and habits totally, to conform to what we (not they) might
call "the Protestant ethic" or a bourgeois/industrial ethic if they wanted
to succeed in the United States. Finally, it appears that one (not the
only) common response of Irish immigrants in America was to refuse to tell
their children anything about Ireland; although in some cases, it appears
that this was because the pain of separation was too great to verbalize, in
other cases it was because they had consciously rejected Ireland for the
sake of success and apparently felt that talking about Ireland would in
some way "contaminate" their children and reduce the latter's ability to
assimilate or achieve upward mobility in America.
Kerby Miller.



>From: Carmel McCaffrey
>Subject: The Dark Side...
>
>
>I have a serious question for the Ir-D list which I would welcome
>discussion on.
>
>Recently I was at a conference on Irish literature here in the US and
>the question of 'the greater Ireland' came up. The seminar was led by a
>native Irish person and I am myself a native. The subject which we
>drifted into was writers of Irish descent and how they treat Ireland and
>the Irish. Here in the US I continuously encounter references to the
>Irish in negative terms mostly from Irish-Americans who use the term
>"Irish' almost always in pejorative terms as in 'my family fights a lot
>because we're Irish' or my brother is 'a typical Irish drunk' etc. etc.
>The 'American' part of the hyphenation is never used in an equally
>negative sense or even to explain these family dysfunctions as in
>'I'm/we're this way [violent etc.] because I'm/we're American'. This
>attitude is borne out in many of writings and literature of
>Irish-America in a subtle way. I teach Irish studies here and
>constantly have to direct students minds away from the negative
>stereotypes they carry into the classroom mostly based on what they have
>grown up hearing at home. This in spite of the fact that they are
>interested/fascinated by Ireland and have a strong identity with it.
>Yet the identity seems to be always with the 'dark' side of their
>nature.
>
>Does anyone else have any thoughts on this aspect of the Diaspora? That
>there is a legacy of bad attitudes towards the homeland or it's culture
>or is it purely an American phenomenon?
>
>I am not asking this to be shocking in any way or to cause an uproar but
>am genuinely interested in a discussion on this as it is something that
>I have tried to deal with for a number of years.
>
>Carmel McC

From: David Ingle, Mary Franck

FROM: David Ingle, Framingham, Massachusetts

Noting an exchange concerning negative images of the Irish as
hard-drinkers & eager brawlers I have to say that in at least one
genre of popular culture - the folk song - these attributions are
exceedingly common as SELF-IMAGES of the rural Irish, by the later 19th
century. Arguments about stereotypes of immigrants to the U.S. (or
Britain) or even incorporation of stereotypes by the victims are
secondary to understanding why hard-drinking was a badge of honor in
rural pub-society and why faction fighting has achieved that status of
a sport by 1840.

As an outsider, I see these cultural data as indicators of a deep
question that is little discussed today. The most incisive treatment I
have found is that by Richard Stivers: A HAIR OF THE DOG: IRISH
DRINKING AND AMERICAN STEREOTYPES 1976. So far my queries of Irish
historians have yielded little additional analysis. My own hypothesis
is that the street ballads of the l9th century were effective
propaganda pieces, making a minority culture in the homeland appear to
the American immigrant as quintessential Irishness.

David Ingle, Framingham, Massachusetts

From Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: J. M. O'Neill

Ultan,

I've just checked the online catalogues, and the copyright libraries
have copies of the 4 novels...

Canon bang bang, 1989, 1991
Commissar Connel, 1992, 1993
Duffy is Dead, 1988, 1987
Open Cut, 1986, 1987

I have a copy of Duffy is Dead - but if you think I am going to lend it
to anyone you are quite, quite mad.

(I once lent out my entire Blasket Islands collection... Gloom, gloom.)

I'd say, Check libraries near you. They are/were popular novels.
Catalogues seem to have trouble with the name - J. SPACE M. SPACE
O'Neill sometimes works, sometimes doesn't. It is worth searching under
every variant, including 'Jerry' and 'Jerry M.'. I am also making
enquiries with chums in the book trade.

I have now been told that there was an Obituary by Kevin O'Connor in The
Guardian for Monday, June 14. This Obituary may be placed on The
Guardian's Web site - but I have never been able to get any sense out of
that Web site. I don't know if any Irish newspapers noticed the death.

I don't know anything about J. M. O'Neill's plays, except by reputation.
As far as I have been able to establish the plays have not been
published.

There was, I recall, some discussion of O'Neill on the Ir-D list early
last year. We were asked to suggest readable works of fiction that
looked at the Irish experience in Britain. I then tried to find out
more about him, and find out what happened to him - for he was no longer
in London.

Paddy


In message , irish-
diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk writes
>
>
>From: ultan cowley
>Subject: Ir-D J. M. O'Neill
>
>
>Dear Paddy,
> I was unaware of Jerry O'Neill's writings and work history. Its
>a pity no one tipped me off about him/them during the five years I've been
>researching the history of the Irish in British construction.
>I am sorry to hear of his death - on account of own work, obviously, but
>also because he might have wished to contribute his own unique insider's
>perspective to the story...
>
>Could you either give me some details of his publications or, if they're
>out of print, lend me a copy of the work you refer to below?
>
>I'm struggling to get the book finished before heading off to France for a
>family holiday from June 19 to July 3. There may however be opportunities
>to amend or add to the text before it goes to press.
>
>Regards,
>Ultan
>
>
>>
>`Its a good life - if you don't weaken!'
>

- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Irish-Diaspora list
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/

Personal Fax National 0870 0521605
Fax International +44 870 0521605

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Interdisciplinary Human Studies
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England

From: "Ide O'Carroll"

Subject: Info. on Irish Lesbian billboard campaign


Paddy

Thought I'd forward information on the first national lesbian billboard
campaign which was launched in Dublin yesterday. The campaign is organised
by Lesbian Education & Awareness Project, the first lesbian project in the
European Union to be funded under the EU European Social Fund Community
Initiative - EMPLOYMENT-NOW (New Opportunities for Women). LEA is committed
to combating institutional discrimination and social prejudice against
lesbians and to contributing to the ongoing development of a vibrant lesbian
community in Ireland. The billboard carries an image of a mother and
daughter with the following text 'How should you feel if your daughter's a
lesbian? The same way you'd feel if she wasn't.' The billboards are in all
major cities, north and south. Jan O'Sullivan, the Labour TD and
Spokesperson on Equality along with the singer Mary Coughlan officially
launched the campaign.

I was involved in the first round of the LEA project 1995-1997, and after a
very hard two year's graft we managed to secure a second round of funding
(and a significant increase in allocation). The project now employs 5
workers, with voluntary management and advisory groups. It's very much a
community based project and I know that while everyone was excited at the
launch yesterday, messages of support and encouragement would be warmly
appreciated by the project team. There's going to be some flak, I'm sure,
so I'd encourage folks to forward messages of support. Please e-mail the
project at the following address:

leanow[at]indigo.ie

Beir bua

Ide

Ide O'Carroll
An Tigh Gorm
Lismore
County Waterford
IRELAND

Tel/Fax: +353-58-53276

The poet Mary Oliver asks: "What will you do with your one wild and precious
life?"

From: Noel Gilzean

Subject: J. M. O'Neill, Obituary


Here you go Paddy

Noel


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
OBITUARY

Jerry O'Neill

Publican and chronicler of Irish immigrant life on the building sites of
London

written by Kevin O'Connor

Guardian Monday June 14, 1999

A Victorian upbringing in Limerick was the real origin of JM O'Neill's
highly regarded novels of London low-life. The father of "Jerry" O'Neill had
been a postmaster in a provincial city riven by class divisions. So, as a
youngster, Jerry holidayed in Lahinch, the Clare resort much favoured by
the professional classes, rather than in Kilkee, which was the watering
place for the Limerick proletariat.

In his adult life, Jerry, who has died aged 77, was to ennoble and
mythologise both English and immigrant Irish labour on London's building
sites. Through his play God is Dead on the Balls Pond Road, and his first
novel Open Cut, he brought to artistic life that previously unknown culture
of "de buildins".

In Jerry's own words, this was "... a world of kerbside sweat and
manpower, open-cut tunnels, timber shafts looking across a chaos of
traffic. Gangs eat in cafes if they can, wait for the evening of warmth
and drink, sleep like the dead until the alarms explode them into another
day."

Death and maiming were regular. "Smashed cadavers pulled into the
daylight, hardly wept over, coffined with raised glasses and whip-rounds,
sent to the limbo cemeteries of Finchley and Leytonstone." Jerry O'Neill
knew that world, as a hiring agent for John Murphy, one of London's biggest
Irish contractors. Before that experience, he had spent 30 years as a
nomadic bank clerk, kicking off from a first job in Kilrush, Co Clare,
moving to Ulster, where he played football for Newry Town under an
assumed name (neither the bank nor other local elements would have
tolerated "in goal: JM O'Neill").

Wanderlust took him abroad, banking for Barclays giving him a passage to
Nigeria and Ghana, observing "the fag-end of Empire", a milieu he exploited
in the novel Commissar Connell, whose lead character was described by one
reviewer as "a fugitive Irish gone native". It was a description that might
have suited the itinerant O'Neill himself. He settled in London, living and
loving the capital, especially the river run of history along Rotherhithe,
where he was to set his novel Canon Bang-Bang.

This was a black and funny book about a bent priest who was nearer to God
than his pursuing superiors, all of them intent on depriving him of a golden
inheritance of development acres in Docklands. O'Neill used his insider
knowledge of building, banking and even religion to create truly original
characters, sliding about in a landscape washed by the permanent Thames.

In 1967, he became landlord of the Duke of Wellington pub in Islington.
Before his writing was published, and during his tenure of 13 years, Jerry
managed to retain and expand the local clientele with his avuncular
landlordism, dispensing charity to the needy, hand-outs and hospitality for
births, weddings and funerals and "Art for the Culchies". A defunct
snooker-room became, on alternate nights, an Edwardian music hall and a
folk kitchen, and at weekends turned into a real live theatre, where some
gritty plays of London immigrant life were performed.

There, too, when the glasses were tidied away, Jerry repaired to work in
secret on his early two books, with what a friend once described as "demonic
energy that could survive the ramshackle carnival of running a London pub".

When Open Cut was published, the second novel, Duffy is Dead, was already
completed. At 65 years of age, he was on his way in a longed-for new
adventure, making sense of his variegated life, in those novels that some
reviewers seized upon, praising him in ways that suggested he might become
a minor literary cult.

He lived long enough to pen another three novels; and long enough, too, to
return to that Limerick and Kilkee, so long avoided, with his devoted wife,
Mary. She bore him five children, of whom four survive.

JM (Jerry) O'Neill, novelist, playwright and publican, born September
27, 1921; died May 21, 1999

Kevin O'Connor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Forwarded by
Noel Gilzean
Behavioural Sciences
University of Huddersfield
n.a.gilzean[at]hud.ac.uk
01484 472835
http://www.hud.ac.uk/hip/

From: Carmel McCaffrey

Subject: Ir-D The Dark Side...


I find the answers to my initial question regarding the Irish abroad
[especially here in the US] to be very interesting especially Noel's
explanation of the internal workings of identity.

I was not really addressing the issue of stereotypes per say because I feel
that that is quite another matter but how the actual descendants of Irish
immigrants see themselves. They call themselves 'Irish' even more frequently
than they use the term 'Irish-American' yet they denigrate the Irish aspect of
themselves in favour of the American which is always hard-working, fair,
honest, law abiding and so on. Yet the Irish is usually seen in a negative
way. I have also lived in England and seen the stereotyping there and the
somewhat widespread rejection of Irishness among the next generations of Irish
descent but the US is different in that these people uphold the Irish
connection yet at the same time see it as something very definitely 'less' than
the American culture and way of life and usually they focus in on anything that
supports this. For example I was teaching Joyce to a class, had them read 'The
Dead' and then we viewed some of it on video. The first word out of one of
the students [an Irish American] when I asked for a discussion was 'Freddy sure
is a typical Irish lush'. I was stunned that this was the most impressive
thing about the reading. To any student of literature Freddy is a side show.
I did find Noel's response on identity very interesting and also wonder whether
the same holds true for other countries - do the descendants need to identify
with the new culture so much that there is an internal struggle to shed the
'other' or at least demonize it?

Carmel

From: DanCas1[at]aol.com

Subject: Ir-D The Dark Side...


Is it possible the so-called "dark side" of alcoholism and pathology that
"Irishness" represents to many 2nd and 3rd generation Irish-Americans is
merely a reflection of their family and community experience. As someone who
grew up in almost totally Irish working-class neighborhoods such as Sunnyside
and Rockaway Beach's "Irishtown" in NYC in the 1950s, I can tell you that it
would be hard to exaggerate the amount of drinking that occurred in those
postwar years. For the most part, this was a male phenomenon. It was offset
by the other tendencies within this community: strong women, hard work, labor
and political activism, family solidarity, and a conviction that education
was the one ticket out of poverty.

All the above is, obviously, a purely subjective observation.

Dan Cassidy

From: ultan cowley
Subject: Ir-D The Dark Side...


I can't pronounce on Irish-descent Americans but I find Carmel McCaffrey's
observations on the `Irish Descent' in England to be totally at variance
with my own experience of them.

I refer particularly to Carmel's assertion that they evince `widespread
rejection of Irishness' and don't `uphold the Irish connection' as their US
equivalents apparently do.

I have spent many years in Britain, beginning in 1961 at the age of
fifteen, and culminating in two years amongst the Irish in Manchester,
mainly from Mayo,in 1994-6.

As a Dubliner I was a cosmopolitan and felt quite at home in London and had
no problem in associating with the other races of the British Isles. I
would in fact have had far greater difficulty integrating, or even
socialising, with the rural Irish in my own country. Any Dub of that era
would say the same...

As a youth I shared with the youth of both islands a predilection for drink
as the essential catalyst for socialising with my peers, especially those
of the opposite sex. This pathetic phenomenon was and is unfortunately part
of (perhaps the principal part of)the youth culture of Britain and Ireland.

Drunken Irishmen stood out from drunken Englishmen solely by virtue of
their accents and their eccentric behaviour (they could sing and entertain
where the English could only bellow and misbehave). This behaviour however
alarmed the English who reacted by ridiculing it.

The Westie' Irish of thirty and more years ago, on the other hand, came
from a rural collective/community culture to an urban, industrial, nuclear
and essential alien alternative in Britain. Everything about them shouted
`Paddy' and provoked a mild xenophobic racism which, prior to the N.
Ireland `Troubles', was overridden by the English meritocracy that ensured
fair play and (relatively) equal opportunity for all comers. More so in
fact than in the Ireland they left behind...

Their reaction however was to ghettoise themselves and seek to perpetuate
the cultural norms of `home'. They rejected everything English, from accent
to ethos (wearing slippers and eating fish and chips were denounced and
forbidden in their homes), and sought to inoculate their children against
the virus of English culture by exposing them to a monotonous diet of Irish
music, dance, dull holidays in rural Ireland
and diatribes against the English (whom they often still refer to,
privately, as `Tan Bastards'). What is sad is that these same Irish-born
parents will often, in their cups, also refer to the `plastic paddies', the
children of their friends and the friends of their own children, as `Tans'
because they cannot but reflect aspects of the culture of the host society.

The tangible result is a generation of damaged `stateless persons' who, in
(rural) Ireland, are ridiculed as `Brits' and in England are derided as
`Plastic Paddies'. They are obsessed with everything Irish and strive to
validate their claim to equal status with their native Irish peers by
rejecting everything English. For example, when England plays Germany, the
Irish-descent will always support the Germans! Many of their (often very
accomplished) traditional musicians will utterly, and boorishly, reject any
form of English trad. despite the fact that it was the English folk revival
of the 'sixties which gave a platform and a living to the modern `Greats'
of Irish music.

There are also, of course, the `arrivees' and the `melt-away' middle
classes and their children. These may well either strive to be more English
than the English or carefully select from images of MODERN Ireland traits
and practices accepted or envied by the dullard Brits. But they are only a
minority...

Given the threadbare nature of so much of what passes for Irish culture in
Britain, and its out-of-time relationship to modern Ireland, the best that
can be said for where they're at is that at least they have some sense of
who they are; the modern British, in contrast, are bereft of any true sense
of collective identity.

The Irish-Americans are another day's work but certainly I believe there
are many different elements amongst the Irish in Britain, both 1st and 2nd
generation, which one needs to differentiate between before arriving at an
accurate appraisal of their beliefs and attitudes.

Ultan Cowley
`Its a good life - if you don't weaken!'

From Patrick O'Sullivan


To answer Noel Gilzean's query...

I used a quote from the Australian novelist, Dudley McCarthy, to flag
the discussion of mental distress issues in The Irish World Wide, and to
introduce Liam Greenslade's interesting application of Fanon to Irish
patterns...

Dudley McCarthy, The Fate of O'Loughlin, Macdonald, London, 1980, is
really a novel of Australia as the colonising power in New Guinea.
There is a long section in which the protagonist reflects on his Irish
heritage. Some extracts...

'These Irish Roman Catholics were bitter clannish people, secretive
except among themselves. They had reason to be, of course. They'd been
persecuted for their religion (and done their own share of that, too, I
suppose), driven off their land, starved in the famines...'

'What I can't understand about the Irish, though, is that when all this
is behind them and they're free in a good new country, their country as
much as anyone else's, they can't forget. Or they don't want to
forget...'

'It's funny how the Irish never seems to breed out. You're born with
it, even people like me. Gradually, as you grow, you know it's there...
this damned Irish thing that never breeds out. It's going to keep you
apart all your life, even when you're laughing and talking and singing
and drunk. It's going to creep up on you suddenly sometimes in the
night so you lie stiff as a board in bed... drowning in darkness and
despair. Or you get up a couple of hours before dawn and look
hopelessly around you feeling that you're damned for ever.'

Whilst I would not wish specifically to endorse this as an exploration
of 'Irishness' - what is missing, of course, is a comparative context -
I can report that you find material like this throughout the English-
speaking Irish Diaspora. This is an example of what happens when people
of Irish heritage begin to meditate on that heritage, as they find it
within themselves.

Paddy O'Sullivan
- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Irish-Diaspora list
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/

Personal Fax National 0870 0521605
Fax International +44 870 0521605

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Interdisciplinary Human Studies
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England

The usual reports of world-wide celebrations of Bloomsday, yesterday -
with a big spread in The Guardian about Bloomsday in Buenos Aires...

And today we have been sent this item from the Irish Times...


Irish Times - June 17

The arrest of a Japanese woman who travelled here especially for
Bloomsday would do irreparable damage to the image of Ireland in Japan,
Mr David Norris told the Seanad yesterday.

Mr Norris asked the leader of the House to convey to the Minister for
Justice, Equality and Law Reform the strong concern of members about the
arrest of a Japanese woman on Tuesday. "Perhaps we should have an
investigation into the facts surrounding this case. I was apprised of
the arrest by the secretary of a former minister at 1 p.m. yesterday.
This lady has a substantial income and her family has a business in
Tokyo.

"She travelled to Dublin for Bloomsday and did not need a visa to do so.
Unfortunately, she was arrested on foot of information that she had been
refused a visa in London and was put on a plane back to Amsterdam. That
is an extraordinary and high-handed way to behave."

Mr Norris said TDs had attempted to contact the immigration officials by
telephone but they had refused to talk. "As a gesture of good will the
Government should pay the fare for that woman to come back here and I
will entertain her at the James Joyce centre. The ill-treatment of this
lady will do irreparable damage to the image of Ireland in Japan.

"We are happy to make money out of our great writers when it suits us.
We talk about Ireland being an island of the welcomes. Let us ensure
that our immigration officials do not let us down."

- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Irish-Diaspora list
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/

Personal Fax National 0870 0521605
Fax International +44 870 0521605

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Interdisciplinary Human Studies
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England

From: Carmel McCaffrey

Subject: Ir-D The Dark Side...

Thanks Ultan for your informative reply. My experience [also as a Dub] living
in England was as an undergraduate at Southampton University in the 1970s and
in that part of the country the Irish that I knew were not numerous enough to
form a ghetto community but were more isolated among a sea of Englishness. One
family actually changed their Irish 'O' name to that of an English county in
order I assume to assimilate. Another Irish family living in a council estate
hung an enormous Union Jack on the front door in order to avoid being labelled
troublemakers. The few Irish descent students that I knew really showed no
interest in Ireland and regarded 'the troubles' as being an internal problem
and not related to the English connection at all and they even seemed
embarrassed by it all. So I suppose these experiences coloured my own take on
the situation and the point I was trying to make was that here in the US
the opposite seems true but in fact there is a subtle rejection going on which
is harder to discern but nevertheless forms part of the Irish American
consciousness.

But I do take your point about London and Manchester which are probably more
typical because large communities of Irish live there so I am very happy to
stand corrected.

I do take issue with your assertion that it was the English folk revisal of the
1960s which 'gave a platform and a living to the modern Irish greats' - there
was a strong American component in that platform just as there was/is to the
Riverdance craze. It was the sons and daughters of Irish immigrants here who
sought a valid connection to Irish culture who gave a substantial living to
early groups such as the Clancy Brothers and the others who followed them
here.

Carmel