From Email Patrick O'Sullivan

Reconciliation: Emancipatory Theory Applied in Australia, by Gideon Goosen.
This is an interesting article - details pasted in at the bottom of this
email - which uses ideas from The Dynamics of Conflict in Northern Ireland:
Power, Conflict and Emancipation, By Joseph Ruane and Jennifer Todd.
Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1996.

It is especially interesting because generally it was thought that the
Emancipatory Theory parts of the book were the least convincing - see for
example book review by Arthur Aughey, American Political Science Review,
June, 1998, available at...
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0259/n2_v92/20851377/p1/article.jhtml

P.O'S.

publication
Peace and Change

ISSN
0149-0508 electronic: 1468-0130

publisher
Blackwell Publishing

year - volume - issue - page
2004 - 29 - 2 - 250

article

Reconciliation: Emancipatory Theory Applied in Australia
Goosen, Gideon

abstract

This article takes the emancipatory theory as propounded by Joseph Ruane and
Jennifer Todd and applies it to the issue of reconciliation between
Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders and other Australians. 1 It outlines
the analysis of the theoretical construct of the authors embracing the three
levels of relationships between groups of people living in conflict: (1)
dimensions of difference; (2) structures of dominance, dependence, and
inequality; and (3) tendencies toward communal polarization. The article
further describes the multistranded approach to reconciliation that flows
from this analysis. It then critically applies the three procedural steps of
moderating differences; disassembling structures of dominance, dependence,
and inequality; and defusing communal polarization to the situation of
indigenous people in Australia. This is done through describing the
interaction of the groups under discussion and demonstrating their
conflicting interests. The analysis and application of the emancipatory
theory includes comparative insights between the Irish and Australian
context. The article concludes that the emancipatory theory is a useful tool
both for understanding the issues regarding reconciliation in Australia and
for providing insights for action.

From Russell Murray (r.c.murray[at]Bradford.ac.uk)

Forwarded on behalf of
James Rogers

TOC
New Hibernia Review
Volume 7, Number 4, Winter 2003


- -----Original Message-----
From: Rogers, James
JROGERS[at]stthomas.edu

Folks,

As is our custom at New Hibernia Review, we?d like to give a little rundown
on the contents of the most recent issue. Subscribers may have already
received the issue; those of you with access to Project Muse may check it
out on line at

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/new_hibernia_review/toc/nhr7.4.html


The issue opens with a seminal address by Richard Ryan, Ireland?s
ambassador to the United Nations, Recalling his long experience in Irish
diplomacy and, particularly, his intense engagements with United Nations
efforts regarding Angola, the "Great Lakes" region of Africa, and Iraq, Ryan
eloquently argues both the practical and ideal effects of multilateralism on
the world's peoples.

Noted Joycean Weldon Thornton then offers a compelling argument for ?The
Greatness of Ulysses.? The centennial of Bloomsday this coming June 16 will
no doubt send hordes of new readers to Joyce's definitive, if daunting,
novel?and as Thornton illuminates, Ulysses will more than repay their
efforts.

Next, Gréagoir Ó Dúill, a guiding influence at Donegal?s The Poet's House,
offers a suite of new poems in Irish, with English translations by Bernie
Kenny. Ó Dúill's poems invest both ordinary signs of rural progress with
foreboding, as in "The Cruellest Month" and political mourning with hope, as
in "Coinnle Samhna," an elegy for the Nigerian activist Ken Saro-Wiwa.

Writing from Malta, Brenda Murphy sets out to find the origins of Guinness
Stout?s extraordinary worldwide popularity. Using Michael Billig?s ideas of
?banal antionalism? and extended interviews with Gunness drinkers at home
and abroad, she finds a "myth" around Guinness that included membership,
imagined locales, and especially, an idea of home.

The early years of Ireland's Abbey Theatre were famously attended by
controversy, ranging from artistic debates among its principals to its
celebrated "riots.. Dr. Paige Reynolds scrutinizes the "little magazines"
Bealtaine, Samhain, and The Arrow published by the Abbey and finds that
these too are filled with tensions -- between idealism and pragmatism, and
between the high-minded reading public envisioned by Yeats and the Abbey
leadership and the reality of the theater-going public.

Synge's one-act play In the Shadow of the Glen excited much controversy and
aspersion among Irish nationalists when it was first performed. Nelson O
Ceallaigh Ritschel finds that the controversy surrounding Nora's leaving of
Dan, her elderly husband, resonated against one strain of nationalism that
ennobled the Irish woman in the home and with a more libertarian strain,
that engaged suffrage and the right to divorce.

Next, Thomas Mangione charts the fortunes of the Model School system
established in 1834 with the charge of training Irish primary teachers.
Though the Model Schools were few in number, Mangione demonstrates that
their ambitious scope and regimented curricular demand that were to prove
the cornerstone of Ireland's much larger system of national schools.

Intellectuals and artists converged on the University of Virginia to
undertake the self-appointed task of "Re-imagining Ireland" last May. Among
them was Cheryl Herr, who arrived with high hopes. She presents a reflective
essay that admits to some disappointment; for, despite such highlights as
Luke Gibbons's call to turn away from the "rage of history," the conference
proved too amorphous and multidimensional to accomplish its ambitious goals.


Finally, Christie Fox examines the indoor drama and outdoor theatrics of the
Galway Arts Festival, often highlighted by a Macnas parade. Fox notes that,
the 2003 festival featured fewer artists and performances from outside
Ireland than before, in part owing to new rulings about the dreaded VAT.
Audiences seeking traditional Irish drama were well rewarded by a
production of Tom Murphy's The Drunkard.

Subscription information , Contributor guidelines , and other information on
New Hibernia Review mat be found at the web siter below, or by contracting
Editor
Thomas Dillon Redshaw (tdredshaw[at]stthomas.edu) or Managing Editor Jim Rogers
(jrogers[at]stthomas.edu)

New Hibernia Review
University of St Thomas
2115 Summit # 5008
St Paul MN 55105
www.stthomas.edu/irishstudies


New Hibernia Review
Volume 7, Number 4, Winter 2003

CONTENTS
Redshaw, Thomas Dillon,

Ryan, Richard
Ireland on the World Stage: At the United Nations and on the Security
Council

Thornton, Weldon.
The Greatness of Ulysses

Ó Dúill, Gréagóir.
Filíocht Nua: New Poetry

Murphy, Brenda.
Pure Genius: Guinness Consumption and Irish Identity

Reynolds, Paige.
Reading Publics, Theater Audiences, and the Little Magazines of the Abbey
Theatre

Ritschel, Nelson O'Ceallaigh,
In the Shadow of the Glen: Synge, Ostrovsky, and Marital Separation

Mangione, Thomas.
The Establishment of the Model School System in Ireland, 1834-1854

Herr, Cheryl,
"Re-Imagining Ireland," Rethinking Irish Studies

Fox, Christie.
Galway Arts Festival, 2003: Focusing on Home, Still Delighting

Sommers-Smith, Sally.
Celtic Music: A Complete Guide. From Ancient Roots to Modern Performers: The
Music of Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and Beyond

Donovan, Kevin Joseph.
Theatre in Belfast, 1736-1800 (review)

Gillen, Shawn.
Forgetting Ireland (review)

Youngblom, Tracy.
No Earthly Estate: God and Patrick Kavanagh (review)

From: Kerby Miller
Subject: Re: Ir-D Irish in Montana

Would it be possible to get a copy for my classes (with subtitles)?
Thanks,
Kerby




>From: "MacEinri, Piaras"
>To: "'irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk '"
>Subject: Butte Montana
>Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:19:39 -0000
>
>Irish language station TG4, which has broadcast some of the most innovative
>programmes anywhere on the Irish Diaspora, tonight showed a one-hour
>documentary on Butte, Montana (subtitled in English). Centred on the history
>of three Ferriter brothers from the Irish-speaking Gaeltacht of Corca
>Dhuibhne in west Kerry, the film is a portrait (by well-known documentary
>maker Breandan FeirtÈar) of Butte's glory days as a major mining town, a
>third of whose population was Irish. The documentary covers the development
>of the mines and the social and cultural history of the town, including the
>politics of trade unionism and the accusations of sedition made against the
>Butte Irish after the US entered WWI. Historian David Emmons is a major
>contributor but several others are also featured. The connection with
>Allihies in West Cork (one of the few mining regions in Ireland) emerges
>clearly and a number of present-day descendants of the original Butte Irish,
>such as Kevin Shannon, are interviewed.
>
>The Irish contribution is placed within a broader context of immigrant
>workers and a number of mine workers of various backgrounds (the mine only
>finally closed in the 1970s) are interviewed.
>
>The documentary is now without fault (women are almost invisible) but is
>nonetheless compelling viewing, beautifully made and highly recommended, at
>least by this viewer.
>
>Piaras Mac Einri
>Cork


------------------------------------------------------------
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To report misuse from this email address forward the message
and full headers to misuse[at]bradford.ac.uk
------------------------------------------------------------

From: "William Mulligan Jr."
Subject: RE: Ir-D Re: Irish in Montana documentary
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 09:04:45 -0600

The program Piaras described sounds like "From Beara to Butte," produced
by Radharc Films in 1994.

They have a website and the program and others can be ordered.

http://www.radharcfilms.com/index.html

William H. Mulligan, Jr.
Professor of History
Director, Forrest C. Pogue Public History Institute
Coordinator, World Civilizations and Cultures Courses
Murray State University




- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
[mailto:owner-irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk] On Behalf Of
irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 12:50 AM
To: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
Subject: Ir-D Re: Irish in Montana documentary



From: Kerby Miller
Subject: Re: Ir-D Irish in Montana

Would it be possible to get a copy for my classes (with subtitles)?
Thanks, Kerby




>From: "MacEinri, Piaras"
>To: "'irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk '"
>Subject: Butte Montana
>Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:19:39 -0000
>
>Irish language station TG4, which has broadcast some of the most
>innovative programmes anywhere on the Irish Diaspora, tonight showed a
>one-hour documentary on Butte, Montana (subtitled in English). Centred
>on the history of three Ferriter brothers from the Irish-speaking
>Gaeltacht of Corca Dhuibhne in west Kerry, the film is a portrait (by
>well-known documentary maker Breandan FeirtÈar) of Butte's glory days
>as a major mining town, a third of whose population was Irish. The
>documentary covers the development of the mines and the social and
>cultural history of the town, including the politics of trade unionism
>and the accusations of sedition made against the Butte Irish after the
>US entered WWI. Historian David Emmons is a major contributor but
>several others are also featured. The connection with Allihies in West
>Cork (one of the few mining regions in Ireland) emerges clearly and a
>number of present-day descendants of the original Butte Irish, such as
>Kevin Shannon, are interviewed.
>
>The Irish contribution is placed within a broader context of immigrant
>workers and a number of mine workers of various backgrounds (the mine
>only finally closed in the 1970s) are interviewed.
>
>The documentary is now without fault (women are almost invisible) but
>is nonetheless compelling viewing, beautifully made and highly
>recommended, at least by this viewer.
>
>Piaras Mac Einri
>Cork




------------------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://webmail.brad.ac.uk
To report misuse from this email address forward the message
and full headers to misuse[at]bradford.ac.uk
------------------------------------------------------------

Forwarded on behalf of
James Rogers

TOC
New Hibernia Review
Volume 7, Number 4, Winter 2003


- -----Original Message-----
From: Rogers, James
JROGERS[at]stthomas.edu

Folks,

As is our custom at New Hibernia Review, we?d like to give a little
rundown
on the contents of the most recent issue. Subscribers may have already
received the issue; those of you with access to Project Muse may check
it
out on line at

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/new_hibernia_review/toc/nhr7.4.html


The issue opens with a seminal address by Richard Ryan, Ireland?s
ambassador to the United Nations, Recalling his long experience in
Irish
diplomacy and, particularly, his intense engagements with United Nations
efforts regarding Angola, the "Great Lakes" region of Africa, and Iraq,
Ryan
eloquently argues both the practical and ideal effects of
multilateralism on
the world's peoples.

Noted Joycean Weldon Thornton then offers a compelling argument for ?The
Greatness of Ulysses.? The centennial of Bloomsday this coming June 16
will
no doubt send hordes of new readers to Joyce's definitive, if daunting,
novel?and as Thornton illuminates, Ulysses will more than repay their
efforts.

Next, Gréagoir Ó Dúill, a guiding influence at Donegal?s The Poet's
House,
offers a suite of new poems in Irish, with English translations by
Bernie
Kenny. Ó Dúill's poems invest both ordinary signs of rural progress with
foreboding, as in "The Cruellest Month" and political mourning with
hope, as
in "Coinnle Samhna," an elegy for the Nigerian activist Ken Saro-Wiwa.

Writing from Malta, Brenda Murphy sets out to find the origins of
Guinness
Stout?s extraordinary worldwide popularity. Using Michael Billig?s ideas
of
?banal antionalism? and extended interviews with Gunness drinkers at
home
and abroad, she finds a "myth" around Guinness that included membership,
imagined locales, and especially, an idea of home.

The early years of Ireland's Abbey Theatre were famously attended by
controversy, ranging from artistic debates among its principals to its
celebrated "riots.. Dr. Paige Reynolds scrutinizes the "little
magazines"
Bealtaine, Samhain, and The Arrow published by the Abbey and finds that
these too are filled with tensions -- between idealism and pragmatism,
and
between the high-minded reading public envisioned by Yeats and the Abbey
leadership and the reality of the theater-going public.

Synge's one-act play In the Shadow of the Glen excited much controversy
and
aspersion among Irish nationalists when it was first performed. Nelson
O
Ceallaigh Ritschel finds that the controversy surrounding Nora's leaving
of
Dan, her elderly husband, resonated against one strain of nationalism
that
ennobled the Irish woman in the home and with a more libertarian strain,
that engaged suffrage and the right to divorce.

Next, Thomas Mangione charts the fortunes of the Model School system
established in 1834 with the charge of training Irish primary teachers.
Though the Model Schools were few in number, Mangione demonstrates that
their ambitious scope and regimented curricular demand that were to
prove
the cornerstone of Ireland's much larger system of national schools.

Intellectuals and artists converged on the University of Virginia to
undertake the self-appointed task of "Re-imagining Ireland" last May.
Among
them was Cheryl Herr, who arrived with high hopes. She presents a
reflective
essay that admits to some disappointment; for, despite such highlights
as
Luke Gibbons's call to turn away from the "rage of history," the
conference
proved too amorphous and multidimensional to accomplish its ambitious
goals.


Finally, Christie Fox examines the indoor drama and outdoor theatrics of
the
Galway Arts Festival, often highlighted by a Macnas parade. Fox notes
that,
the 2003 festival featured fewer artists and performances from outside
Ireland than before, in part owing to new rulings about the dreaded VAT.
Audiences seeking traditional Irish drama were well rewarded by a
production of Tom Murphy's The Drunkard.

Subscription information , Contributor guidelines , and other
information on
New Hibernia Review mat be found at the web siter below, or by
contracting
Editor
Thomas Dillon Redshaw (tdredshaw[at]stthomas.edu) or Managing Editor Jim
Rogers
(jrogers[at]stthomas.edu)

New Hibernia Review
University of St Thomas
2115 Summit # 5008
St Paul MN 55105
www.stthomas.edu/irishstudies


New Hibernia Review
Volume 7, Number 4, Winter 2003

CONTENTS
Redshaw, Thomas Dillon,

Ryan, Richard
Ireland on the World Stage: At the United Nations and on the Security
Council

Thornton, Weldon.
The Greatness of Ulysses

Ó Dúill, Gréagóir.
Filíocht Nua: New Poetry

Murphy, Brenda.
Pure Genius: Guinness Consumption and Irish Identity

Reynolds, Paige.
Reading Publics, Theater Audiences, and the Little Magazines of the
Abbey
Theatre

Ritschel, Nelson O'Ceallaigh,
In the Shadow of the Glen: Synge, Ostrovsky, and Marital Separation

Mangione, Thomas.
The Establishment of the Model School System in Ireland, 1834-1854

Herr, Cheryl,
"Re-Imagining Ireland," Rethinking Irish Studies

Fox, Christie.
Galway Arts Festival, 2003: Focusing on Home, Still Delighting

Sommers-Smith, Sally.
Celtic Music: A Complete Guide. From Ancient Roots to Modern Performers:
The
Music of Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and Beyond

Donovan, Kevin Joseph.
Theatre in Belfast, 1736-1800 (review)

Gillen, Shawn.
Forgetting Ireland (review)

Youngblom, Tracy.
No Earthly Estate: God and Patrick Kavanagh (review)





------------------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://webmail.brad.ac.uk
To report misuse from this email address forward the message
and full headers to misuse[at]bradford.ac.uk
------------------------------------------------------------

From Email Patrick O'Sullivan

This looks like an interesting gathering...

Amongst the speakers will be Mervyn Horgan, University of York (Canada),
on
Distinction, Disdain, or Deference? Why and how Cork and Dublin dislike one
another

I find this baffling - the respect and affection with which the people of
Cork regard the people of Dublin is a byword throughout the world. And vice
versa, of course.

P.O'S.

- -----Original Message-----
From: "Marina Moskowitz"
Subject: Symposium: Second Cities

Second Cities: An Interdisciplinary Symposium 30 April-1 May 2004 Glasgow,
Scotland

The Andrew Hook Centre for American Studies at the University of Glasgow is
pleased to announce an interdisciplinary symposium on Second Cities, to be
held 30 April-1 May 2004 at the University's Business School. Speakers from
both sides of the Atlantic, in a variety of disciplines including History,
Politics, Geography, Architecture, and Media Studies, will gather to explore
how Second Cities are defined and what their cultural, economic, and
political roles have been and continue to be. Using Glasgow, the self-styled
Second City of the British Empire, as a vantage point, the symposium will
also feature other case studies such as Manchester, Cork, Barcelona,
Rotterdam, Philadelphia, Chicago, and Los Angeles. The symposium seeks to
answer questions such as: How are Second Cities evaluated or measured? In
terms of demography, economy, cultural production, or other qualities? How
are Second Cities juxtaposed to 'first' cities or capital cities, and what
are the distinctions between these categories? How are Second Cities
represented?

All are welcome to attend. For further programme and registration
information, please consult: http://www2.arts.gla.ac.uk/CAS/acts.htm; if
there are further queries, please contact: secondcities[at]hotmail.com.

Posted by: Marina Moskowitz, Andrew Hook Centre for American Studies,
University of Glasgow, mam[at]arts.gla.ac.uk

From Email Patrick O'Sullivan

Please distribute...

Forwarded on behalf of...

William Sheehan
William.Sheehan[at]mic.ul.ie

Department of History

Mary Immaculate College

Limerick

Songs Of Experience: Music and Irish Political Traditions

Call for Papers

A one-day inter-disciplinary conference to be held in Mary Immaculate
College, South Circular Road, Limerick.

Saturday 4 December, 2004

Music and politics have often been deeply interlinked throughout Irish
history. Politics has provided a rich subject material for musicians and
music has been a valuable tool for different communities in supporting
various competing traditions, and as a display of cultural and local
identities.

This conference hopes to provide a forum for open debate concerning the role
of music and political experience in Ireland.

Papers should focus on the role of music and musical institutions in Irish
political life. A wide variety of topics will be considered. However, the
focus of all papers should be on the interplay between music, political life
and tradition.

Abstracts should be no more than 300 words. (Presentation time 20 minutes)
Abstracts should be emailed to the following addresses. The final date for
the submission of abstracts is 8 September 2004.

William.Sheehan[at]mic.ul.ie or Maura.Cronin[at]mic.ul.ie

A full programme and conference details will be emailed at a later date.

From: "Peter Holloran"
To:
Subject: Famine and Fishing

This question by a student has stumped me, but I am sure someone on this
list has the answer. Why didn't the Irish turn to fishing or seafood during
the potato famine?

Peter Holloran
Worcester State College



------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------------------------------------

From: Carmel McCaffrey
Organization: Johns Hopkins University

Peter this has become an almost pejorative question as in "why could
they not have helped themselves?" Sort of Famine denial. I am surprised
that you have not heard this before - I get this 'question' all the
time. There are a number of answers. Firstly, we are talking about
the mid nineteenth century - there was no fishing industry to speak of
in Ireland, and seeing as how the Westminster Government did not even
give out free corn they were hardly going to buy a fleet of fishing
ships for the Irish. The people who died first in the Famine where the
poorest of the poor, often landless, and penniless because of the system
of subdivisions which had been going on for most of the early part of
the century. They were labourers who had access to maybe an acre of
land to grow their own food on. The were hit overnight with the blight.
Where were they to suddenly get boats to go out on? Not from Charles
Trevelyn apparently.

Besides, fish is not a substitute for a staple food like the potato. A
person cannot sustain a healthy life on a diet of fish for very long.
The crop failed a number of times - the Famine lasted for almost five
years - can you even imagine living on a diet of fish only for that
long? The proper substitute for the loss of the potato would have been
another staple food - Corn was a good idea but the British Government
would not distribute it freely as they were afraid of lowering the
market value. Apparently protecting market value was of more importance
than people. So people starved because they did not have the price of
Corn.
Welcome to laissez-faire economics.

Carmel



irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk wrote:




>From: "Peter Holloran"
>To:
>Subject: Famine and Fishing
>
>This question by a student has stumped me, but I am sure someone on this
>list has the answer. Why didn't the Irish turn to fishing or seafood during
>the potato famine?
>
>Peter Holloran
>Worcester State College
>


------------------------------------------------------------
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From: "jamesam"
To:
Subject: Re: Ir-D Famine question


Dear Peter,

The equipment needed for fishing was beyond the means of the tenant
farmers of Ireland, according to Feast and Famine: Food and Nutrition in
Ireland, 1500-1920(LESLIE CLARKSON and MARGARET CRAWFORD ).

I have heard, in lectures, that the seaweed crop of the shore was almost
eradicated, to the detriment of Ireland's ecology.

I have also heard, but I do not remember from which source, that boats
and fishing nets were sold at the beginning of the "famine" so that people
could purchase food to survive.

I hope this helps.

Best,

Patricia Jameson-Sammartano


>
> From: "Peter Holloran"
> To:
> Subject: Famine and Fishing
>
> This question by a student has stumped me, but I am sure someone on
this
> list has the answer. Why didn't the Irish turn to fishing or seafood
during
> the potato famine?
>
> Peter Holloran
> Worcester State College


------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Brian Lambkin
To: "'irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk'"
Subject: RE: Ir-D Article, Emancipatory Theory Applied in Australia

thanks Paddy
v. useful ref.
Brian

- -----Original Message-----
Sent: 26 March 2004 05:00
To: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
Subject: Ir-D Article, Emancipatory Theory Applied in Australia

From Email Patrick O'Sullivan

Reconciliation: Emancipatory Theory Applied in Australia, by Gideon Goosen.
This is an interesting article - details pasted in at the bottom of this
email - which uses ideas from The Dynamics of Conflict in Northern Ireland:
Power, Conflict and Emancipation, By Joseph Ruane and Jennifer Todd.
Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1996.

It is especially interesting because generally it was thought that the
Emancipatory Theory parts of the book were the least convincing - see for
example book review by Arthur Aughey, American Political Science Review,
June, 1998, available at...
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0259/n2_v92/20851377/p1/article.jhtml

P.O'S.

publication
Peace and Change

ISSN
0149-0508 electronic: 1468-0130

publisher
Blackwell Publishing

year - volume - issue - page
2004 - 29 - 2 - 250

article

Reconciliation: Emancipatory Theory Applied in Australia Goosen, Gideon

From Email Patrick O'Sullivan

I would be failing in my duty if I did not intervene at this point...

Divided responsibility meant that this message got baldly through - there
will be a Steward's Enquiry.

This topic was discussed at some length, and in precisely these terms, on
the Irish-Diaspora list in 1999. A search through our Ir-D archives for
'fishing' will turn up most of the discussion - and the rest can be browsed.

The 3 most substantial comments were by Peter Gray, Kerby Miller and myself.
I have dug these out of the archive and will send them to the Ir-D list as a
separate email, titled 'From the Archive - Famine and Fishing'...

I have tracked the research literature since 1999 and I have not seen
anything that adds significantly to this topic - correct me if I am wrong.

Folks, scholarly knowledge is supposed to be cumulative...

Paddy



- -----Original Message-----
From: "Peter Holloran"
To:
Subject: Famine and Fishing

This question by a student has stumped me, but I am sure someone on this
list has the answer. Why didn't the Irish turn to fishing or seafood during
the potato famine?

Peter Holloran
Worcester State College

From Email Patrick O'Sullivan

There have been interesting discussions on a number of the H-Net lists about
anti-German sentiment in the USA after Word War 1. Some of this has
focussed on the work of the late John Higham - see obituary at
http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2003/0310/0310mem2.cfm

And on his book, Strangers in the Land.

This comment by Hans P. Vought - below - seemed worth following up, since it
looks as if his work addresses something of a gap in Irish Diaspora Studies.

When I have further information about Hans Vought's forthcoming book I will
share it with the Ir-D list.

Patrick O'Sullivan

Forwarded with the permission of Hans Vought...

- -----Original Message-----
FROM: Hans Vought,
DATE: March 25, 2004 TIME: 9:18 AM

In response to the earlier question, I have never found the unpublished
paper John Higham cited in _Strangers in the Land_.

However, based on my own research, I believe that Higham overestimated the
collapse of anti-German sentiment in 1920. German and Irish-American
activists continued their wartime alliance in opposing the Treaty of
Versailles, and President Wilson publicly branded opposition to the treaty
as the work of disloyal "hyphenates" in his cross-country speaking tour
before his collapse (see the speeches in Vol. 63 of his Papers). German and
Irish Americans also bitterly opposed the 1920s National Origins quotas
because (contra Higham) they did not benefit all "Nordics," but instead
drastically reduced German and Irish immigration quotas while awarding Great
Britain a much larger quota. Rightly or wrongly, German and Irish-American
activists viewed this as continued punishment for supporting the losing side
in World War I. And indeed, some members of Congress made clear that this
was on their minds.

Montana Senator Henry Lee Myers introduced a bill in 1919 to ban all
immigration from the Central Powers for fifty years. This information is in
my forthcoming book, _The Bully Pulpit and the Melting Pot: American
Presidents and the Immigrant, 1897-1933_, scheduled to be published later
this year by Mercer University Press.


Hans P. Vought, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of History
SUNY-Ulster Co. Community College
Vanderlyn 239C
Stone Ridge, NY 12484
(845) 687-5201

From Email Patrick O'Sullivan

From the Ir-D archive...

For information...

P.O'S.


Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:44:13 +0000
From: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
Subject: Ir-D Famine (fishing)

From: Peter Gray P.Gray[at]soton.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Ir-D Famine (fishing)

'Why didn't the Irish fish' is one of the most frequently asked
questions about the Famine. There are a number of answers, but by far
the most important can be summed up in one word: capital.
Sea-fishing requires capital in the form of boats, nets and the
wherewithall to maintain these. It also requires markets, as the
fisherman must sell most of his catch in normal times to renew his
capital, and in pre-Famine Ireland to purchase the cheaper and more
regular foodstuff that supplied the bulk of his and his family's
subsistence needs - the potato.

Fish was a luxury food for Irish peasants in the pre-Famine period,
and one of the first to be abandoned when the potato failed from
1845. On the west coast markets for fish (a highly perishable good)
did not extend beyond the immediate locality - and consequently the
fishing trade was small scale, using small inshore craft (curraghs)
and was highly seasonal. When fishermens' incomes collapsed from 1845
the natural reaction (their 'survival strategy') was to pawn their
equipment and abandon maintainance to maximise the money available
for purchasing grain or potatoes. No doubt public works schemes
appeared a more reliable source of income than risking their lives in
the winter storms of the north Atlantic for a catch that nobody could
buy. In addition to this, it appears that the seasonal migration of
herring in the Atlantic shifted in the later 1840s to a range beyond
the capabilities of small open boats.

A number of philanthropic groups during the Famine (including the
Quakers) did attempt to revive fishing my offering loans to unpawn
the boats and buy netting materials, but as most of them realised,
this was useless without the additional creation of markets,
transport links and fish processing - and these attempts to create a
fishing infrastructure took some time and considerable effort to
create. They had marginal impact during the Famine itself.

One way in which marine life could be harvested and consumed without
capital investment was the use of shellfish or edible seaweeds on the
shorelines. Contemporary reports speak of whole areas of the west
being stripped of this in the course of 1847 - unfortunately it was
not a sustainable resource.

The conclusion is clear, in the absence of the potato, only an
effectively distributed and price-controlled (or free) supply of
foodgrains could have stemmed the worst of the famine. Except for the
spring of 1846 and the brief soup kitchen regime of summer 1847 the
state and the private markets failed to provide this - and this
despite the widespread availability of grain on the international
markets from spring 1847. Fishing could offer only the most marginal
addition of foodstuffs during the crisis, and the structure of the
Irish economy rendered it largely irrelevant.

Peter

Peter Gray
Dept of History
University of Southampton
pg2[at]soton.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:44:13 +0000
From: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
Subject: Ir-D Famine (fishing)

From: Kerby Miller histkm[at]showme.missouri.edu

My memory of what I've read on this subject is vague. It's my recollection
that along the West coast of Ireland, fishing was primarily a source of
income, used to pay rents, and only a relatively minor part of the diet of
peasants who were only part-time fishermen, who depended primarily on
potatoes. Most of the fish caught off the Co. Galway coast was sold in the
Galway market, and when the potato crops were blighted many part-time
fishermen pawned or sold their boats, tackle, etc., for money to buy food
to replace the potatoes. When the money ran out, when the potato crops
failed a second or third time, the peasants no longer had the boats, etc.,
that would have enabled them to fish. I also remember one authority
arguing that the famine coincided with one of the periodic disappearances
of the herring from the shallow waters near the coast, and the vast
majority of the West's part-time fishermen did not have boats that were
suitable for deep-water fishing. Nevertheless, I also recall reading that
eating fish, shellfish, and seaweed prevented mortality rates among the
peasants in regions such as the Aran Islands and the west coast of Donegal
from soaring to the high levels experienced by those who did not have easy
access to the seashore. The few areas where fishing was highly
commercialized -- the coasts of counties Down, Wicklow, and Wexford -- were
much less heavily dependent on potatoes.
Kerby Miller.


Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:45:13 +0000
From: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
Subject: Ir-D Famine (fishing)

From Patrick O'Sullivan P.OSullivan[at]bradford.ac.uk

You can add a little detail to what has been said already by looking at
the work of Cormac O Grada, the economic historian...

See, for example, O Grada, Ireland, A New Economic History, 1780-1939,
Clarendon Press, Oxford, especially pp 146-152, plus references. He
says, p 148, 'Curiously, the history of the Irish fishing industry has
been little studied...' - directing attention however to John de Courcy
Ireland, Ireland's Sea Fisheries, 1981, and to some thesis work. (John
de Courcy Ireland is the man who has done so much to awaken interest in
Ireland's maritime history.)

But the whole history of fishing in pre-Famine Ireland is the whole
history in miniature. Government support to fisheries ceased in 1829 -
as British governments became committed to 'non-interference' in
economic affairs. The 1841 census counted 9142 fishermen, and 69
fisherwomen. This means, of course, that the 'part-time' fishers,
supplementing a small farm livelihood, were not counted. A revised
enumeration in 1836 had found 54119 fishermen and 10761 boats - still
not that many.

'Nevertheless, the failure of the seas around a land-hungry, poverty-
stricken island to provide their main livelihood to fewer than 10,000
men has puzzled generations of commentators...' So your student was
asking a very sensible question.

O Grada lists the possible explanations. There are the usual 'cultural'
explanations - Irish 'fecklessness and superstition...', etc. Before
putting some meat on explanations already given - lack of capital, lack
of markets. The Famine crisis led to the effects already described -
the selling or pawning of boats, the harvesting of the sea-shore but not
the sea.

These things change as technologies change - refrigeration replaces
smoking, and so on. The migrant Irish were very active, as seasonal
workers, in the smoked fish industries of Scotland and England, and the
Isle of Man. Once again, labour follows capital.

Paddy O'Sullivan

From: Chad Habel
Subject: Re: Ir-D Famine question
In-Reply-To:

Dear Peter,

I am no expert on the Famine (and I'm not even a historian), but my
understanding is that there was substantial agricultural activity in
Ireland in the 1840s, but the produce was mostly being exported to the
Empire. (I don't know how fishing fits into this.) It was the mass of the
population's dependance on potatos which caused the problem when the Blight
struck. In terms of colonialism, dependency theory is probably better able
to explain this than I am, and there's probably others out there who can
provide a much better answer than this.

Cheers,
Chad Habel


>From: "Peter Holloran"
>To:
>Subject: Famine and Fishing
>
>This question by a student has stumped me, but I am sure someone on this
>list has the answer. Why didn't the Irish turn to fishing or seafood during
>the potato famine?
>
>Peter Holloran
>Worcester State College


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From: patrick maume
Sender: P.Maume[at]Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
To: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Ir-D Famine question

From: Patrick Maume
I think this one came up on either this list or the Irish
studies list a few years ago. If I remember correctly, the
answer was (a)Irish fishermen were relatively underequipped and
only able to fish close inshore (b)Some fishermen pawned their
equipment to survive in the first year of the food shortage,
expecting to redeem it after the next harvest - which of course
failed (c)In some ares such as Aran fishing did in fact succeed
in moderating the impact of the Famine (hence Cormac O Grada's
suggestion that the subsequent demographics of Aran - the
population peaks in the 1870s and declines steadily thereafter
through emigration and delayed marriage - show how Ireland might
have developed if htere had been no Famine - i.e. that the
Famine was not an inevitable MAlthusian catastrophe, but an
unpredictable disaster which hit a population who were already
beginning the process of demographic adjustment.)
Best wishes,
PAtrick
On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:37:50 +0100 (BST)
irish-diaspora[at]bradford.ac.uk wrote:

>
> From: "Peter Holloran"
> To:
> Subject: Famine and Fishing
>
> This question by a student has stumped me, but I am sure someone on this
> list has the answer. Why didn't the Irish turn to fishing or seafood during
> the potato famine?
>
> Peter Holloran
> Worcester State College


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From: WallsAMP[at]aol.com
Subject: Re: Ir-D Famine question 3

Christine Kinealy deals with the fishing issue on A Death-Dealing Famine:
The Great Hunger in Ireland.



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From: "Nieciecki, Daniel"
To: "'irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk'"
Subject: RE: Ir-D Famine question 4
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:22:26 -0500


All that has been contributed so far are important pieces of the puzzle.

Some other considerations:

Not everyone affected by the blight had access to the water. Even if boats
and fishing gear were available, inland victims still would have not been
able to fish for themselves. They would have had to buy fish from others.
Most of the value produced by farmers from the land was not theirs: it
either needed to be sold in exchange for rent money, or it was directly
appropriated by the landlord and sold in a more feudal arrangement. For
many, there was no surplus that they could claim for themselves and sell in
order to buy food on the market, and the subsistence crop they raised to
feed themselves lack black and rotting in the ground. So, there's no way the
majority of the victims could have bought fish even if it had been
available.

Secondly, I believe most of the fishing along the coastline fell under the
manorial rights of the landlord, and thus the peasants were not allowed to
fish there even if they could.

Daniel Nieciecki


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From: Kerby Miller
Subject: Re: Ir-D Disloyal "hyphenates"

Marion Casey's dissertation and forthcoming book contain much
fascinating and, to my knowledge, never previously published
information about the intentionally negative effects of 1920s U.S.
immigration restriction acts on the SOUTHERN Irish in the new Free
State (but not on those in Northern Ireland, I believe, since it
remained part of the UK) and about Irish-American opposition to those
restrictions.

It seems clear to me that this was a clear victory for the
Anglo-"Scotch-Irish" lobby in the U.S., but, ironically, no-one
noticed that the restrictions would discriminate against SOUTHERN
Irish Protestants, as well as Catholics, which in turn is another
example of how the hegemonic label, "Scotch-Irish," however useful in
rhetoric and politics, always obscured far more than it illuminated.

(Of course, the pro-UK quotas would also benefit Northern Ireland
Catholics, as well as Protestants, who wanted to emigrate to the U.S.
If anyone gave that point much thought, presumably they realized that
mass Northern Ireland Catholic out-migration would serve Ulster
Unionist interests while not adding appreciably to the Irish-American
Catholic population--the "dangerous" members of which could perhaps
be excluded from the U.S. on some kind of quasi-political grounds.)

Kerby



>From Email Patrick O'Sullivan
>
>There have been interesting discussions on a number of the H-Net lists about
>anti-German sentiment in the USA after Word War 1. Some of this has
>focussed on the work of the late John Higham - see obituary at
>http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2003/0310/0310mem2.cfm
>
>And on his book, Strangers in the Land.
>
>This comment by Hans P. Vought - below - seemed worth following up, since it
>looks as if his work addresses something of a gap in Irish Diaspora Studies.
>
>When I have further information about Hans Vought's forthcoming book I will
>share it with the Ir-D list.
>
>Patrick O'Sullivan
>


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From: patrick maume
Sender: P.Maume[at]Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
To: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Ir-D Disloyal "hyphenates"

From: Patrick Maume
If I remember correctly, the 1928 Oregon school cases (in which
the US Supreme Court ruled that a state was not entitled to ban
private schools and make all children attend state schools)
involved an attempt to ban both Catholic and German-language
schools. THis would certainly suggest a degree of hostility to
"hyphenates" stretching into the mid-to-late 1920s.
Indeed, the supporters of Prohibition presented it as a
patriotic cause by pointing to German-American dominance of the
brewing industry and the association of the saloon with urban
immigrant groups, including the Irish.
Best wishes,
PAtrick


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