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From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: Proposal, Journal of Irish Diaspora Studies 9
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From: MICHAEL CURRAN
michaeljcurran[at]btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Proposal, Journal of Irish Diaspora Studies 8

Greetings from Belfast Paddy
The only way that this MIGHT be viable, is if we row in - for comparative
studies, with other ethnic migrant groups.
Articles would have to be interdisciplinary and transcultural as well.

Note: Irish Journal of Sociology and the Journal of the Psychological
Society of Ireland, both had special editions in recent years on the Irish
Diaspora , and neither raised the roof!
Slan
Michael J. Curran


---
Patrick O'Sullivan
wrote:
> Email Patrick O'Sullivan
>
>
> I wonder if it would help discussion here on IR-D if I list some of
> the points that arose in the earlier discussions between Bill Mulligan
> and myself...
>
> There are some problems and background issues, which I am sure
> everyone already knows about - but we might as well put them on the
> record...
>

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Subject: TOC EIRE IRELAND VOL 39; PART 3/4; 2004
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Email Patrick O'Sullivan

For information...

P.O'S.

EIRE IRELAND
VOL 39; PART 3/4; 2004
ISSN 0013-2683

pp. 11-35
Colonial Policing: The Steward of Christendom and The Whereabouts of Eneas
McNulty Cullingford, E.

pp. 36-58
Jacobitism in Eighteenth-Century Ireland: A Munster Perspective Dickson, D.

pp. 59-80
Imaging the Land War
O Sullivan, N.

pp. 81-109
Selling Irish Bacon: The Empire Marketing Board and Artists of the Free
State Cronin, M.

pp. 110-135
Contemporary Irish Art on the Move: At Home and Abroad with Dorothy Cross
Lydenberg, R.

pp. 136-162
The Lough Derg Pilgrimage in the Age of the Counter-Reformation Cunningham,
B.; Gillespie, R.

pp. 163-188
Enshrining Ireland's Nationalist History Inside Prison Walls: The
Restoration of Kilmainham Jail Zuelow, E.

pp. 189-214
Ghosting the Llangollen Ladies: Female Intimacies, Ascendancy Exiles, and
the Anglo-Irish Novel Crowell, E.

pp. 215-236
Doing My Bit for Ireland: Transgressing Gender in the Easter Rising Weihman,
L.

pp. 237-280
"He's My Country": Liberalism, Nationalism, and Sexuality in Contemporary
Irish Gay Fiction Cronin, M. G.

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=20
From: Sean Campbell
sean.campbell117[at]ntlworld.com
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Viva la Quince Brigada 2

Nothing so erudite, I'm afraid. The Spanish U2 lyric was intended merely =
as
a self-reflexive allusion to U2's 1st album (which began with the
conventional rock preface '1,2,3,4') and their current record, which is =
the
band's 14th (hence 'catorce'). There have, of course, been a number of =
other
Spanish-Irish pop-music interfaces, perhaps the best known of which is =
The
Pogues' 'Fiesta' (1988).

Best,
Sean Campbell.
APU, Cambridge.

From: Dymphna.Lonergan[at]flinders.edu.au
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Viva la Quince Brigada

My daughter who has learned Spanish is confused by the Irish group U2s
Spanish in their latest release. Apparently instead of singing the =
Spanish
equivalent of one, two three, four, they sing one, two three, fourteen. =
I
presume this is intentional and so I pass it on in case it related to =
Viva
la Quince Brigada.

Sl=E1n

Dymphna

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From: Murray, Edmundo
Edmundo.Murray[at]wto.org
Subject: RE: [IR-D] Proposal, Journal of Irish Diaspora Studies

Bill,

I think it is a great idea. Ref. #4 it will certainly have the support of
colleagues researching Latin America.

Edmundo Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: "William Mulligan Jr."
To:
Subject: 'Tis Only an Irishman's Dream, perhaps - Journal of Irish Diaspora
Studies (LONG)

Friends and Colleagues--

For a few months Paddy and I have been discussing two ideas I threw out in
an email and this seems like a good time to bring others into the
discussion/debate. I'm not sure what side he'll take on this, we've gone
back and forth and there are pros and cons. This is the first of these two
ideas - the second (a major Diaspora Conference) will be in a second email
to help keep the two discussions (should any occur) separate. This post is
not fully developed - I'll wait and let the discussion go forward and
respond as seems appropriate.

THE IDEA: Journal of Irish Diaspora Studies....

.... 4.) Active support of Diaspora scholars
This is crucial. Do others share my sense that this is something
the field needs and will benefit from? Are you -- and we here on the list
are the core who can make this happen -- willing to submit articles, review
submissions, review books (and get publishers to send your books) , and, the
hardest of all, lobby for library subscriptions as well as taking out a
personal subscription. Subscriptions are, of course, wonderful holiday gifts
and, if given to a library, tax deductible. Seriously, this is why I am
posting this - is anyone else interested?...

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From: Russell Murray
Subject: Tattie howking

Brings back memories! When I was at school in Fife in the early 1960s you
could legitimately get off school in the autumn to go howking - presumably a
hangover from the days when the rural economy depended on extra labour at
harvest times. (From memory - probably unreliable - you got a'chit' signed
by the farmer to validate your absence) I only did once - backbreaking does
not begin to describe it!

Again, from an untrustworthy memory, my recollection is that the gang(s) -
as opposed to the local casual labour - were Scottish, but I'm not sure I'd
have been sufficiently socially aware in my early teens to differentiate. I
do remember that most of the adult howkers were women.

A thought - a recent documentary programme on Yorkshire Television that used
archive film to explore changes in the countryside showed tattie howking
taking place in East Yorkshire in (I think) the 1950s. Would Irish workers
have been involved in this area as well?

Russell Murray

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From: Jim Doan
doan[at]nova.edu
Subject: RE: [IR-D] Query, Irish tatie hokers in Scotland 3



According to the Concise Ulster Dictionary, "hoke, hoak or howk" means "to
dig (something) out; dig, root around; dig with the hands; scrape out," etc.
and is said to derive from Scots and English dialectal howk, Northumberland
and Western Scots also hoke, hoak, from Middle Low German holken "to hollow
out" (I would assume it has the same Germanic root as standard English
"hollow" as well).



James E. Doan, Ph.D.

Professor of Humanities, Nova Southeastern University

President, South Florida Irish Studies Consortium, Inc.

954-262-8207; Fax: 954-262-3881





-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas J. Archdeacon

tjarchde[at]wisc.edu

Subject: RE: [IR-D] Query, Irish tatie hokers in Scotland


Regarding the reference to "tatie hoking." I've seen the second word both
as "hoking" and "hooking." I've even seen an explanation that "hooking"
comes from the Galway hookers on which the workers sailed. Of that
explanation I am suspicious. What is the correct word, or is either ok? If
"hoking" is the proper or more ancient, what is its derivation?

Thanks.

Tom

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From: Liam Greenslade
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Journal of Irish diaspora studies

I for one would welcome and support such a venture, long overdue in my op=
inion

--
Liam Greenslade
Department of Sociology
Trinity College Dublin

Tel +353 (0)16082621

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From: Donald MacRaild
Donald.MacRaild[at]vuw.ac.nz
Subject: Tatie-hoking book

Paddy,

I may have missed a beat on the tatie-hoking exchanges, but did anyone
mention this?:

Heather Holmes, 'As Good as a Holiday': Potato Harvesting in the Lothians
(East Linton, Tuckwell Press, 2000),

Holmes' book is anthropological, I recall, and it may have something to
interest later contributors. Joe Bradley, who initiated with discussion,
will know the tome.

Cheers,


Don

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From: "Rogers, James"
To: "'IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK'"
Subject: thoughts on a journal

Irish Diaspora Listers

First, let me commend both Paddy and Bill on having clearly thought about a
lot of the ins and outs of this matter, and for not floating it until they
had reflected on it at length.

Some thoughts of my own.

It might be useful for you to know that New Hibernia Review can only happen
because there is an endowment behind it. We still need to raise funds for
operating expenses, and to charge subscription fees - which we raised for
the first time in eight years, this week, by the way --but the big ticket
items are taken care of.

It is not especially hard to start up and put out two or three good issues
of a journal. That's been done a lot of times. What is much harder is to
sustain quality publication over an extended period of time, and to do that,
you really need some sort of institutional commitment - which means, in most
cases, a willingness to give the editor an assured course release or
releases.

In spite of repeated assertions and declarations by AAUP, the Council of
Editors of Learned Journals and the like, many institutions do not treat
editing as scholarship - or say they do, but don't really think it counts
when push comes to shove.

As we all know, colleges and universities are at most 10% high-minded. That
10% is real, and should not be sniffed at - but the reality is that
universities sign on to publishing only because they are persuaded that it
will enhance their reputation in the community of scholarship. That's the
most important thing to prove - that this journal will give the school
"brand name identification" among institutions that might not be aware of
them otherwise. The names on the editorial board and the affiliations of the
contributors are what gets noticed on the mahogany rows of the world - at
least as much as the subscribing institutions.

Another critical element in this is getting your journal indexed in the
leading bibliographic services. I didn't find that hard to do, actually, but
you do have to commit to sending gratis copies to them.

It pains me to say this--personally, I have a strong commitment to the idea
of the book as an aesthetic object--but I believe the day of print journals
is fading. Fading fast. My impression is that librarians are quite aware of
the perils of switching to cyberspace: librarians think of themselves as the
guardians of the written word, and they are quite rightly concerned about
such things as going over wholesale to technologies that may not be around
in twenty years. But number-crunchers rarely think this way, and they are
driving the process . If you want to see the future of scholarly
publishing, I suspect it's going to look like E-Keltoi and Jouvert, to name
two Irish ones.

Something I don't know is to what extent electronic publication is still
considered a poor relation of print, in the processes of tenure review and
promotion--though I certainly think it's gaining in acceptance. That, too,
is one of the reasons for starting a journal -- to participate in the
processes of academic advancement.

Paddy's concerns about marginalization are apposite; nonetheless, I do think
Irish Diaspora Studies could sustain a journal, and I would do what I could
it promote it. But unless there is major funding and institutional
commitment - you can't do this in your supposed free time and off your
kitchen table-- I think electronic publishing is the only viable course.

Hope this is helpful. And you will perhaps remember what the old comic
songwriter Tom Lehrer said on one of his albums: "If anyone disagrees with
anything I have said, I prepared not only to retract it but to deny under
oath that I ever said it."

Jim Rogers

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From: Sarah Morgan
dympna101[at]hotmail.com
Subject: RE: [IR-D] Viva la Quince Brigada

The song is 'Viva La Quinta Brigada' from the 1984 album 'Ride On' and is
one of two songs on the album written by Christy Moore. Unfortunately, the
copy of the album which I have doesn't provide lyrics.

Sarah Morgan.

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From: Joe Bradley j.m.bradley[at]stir.ac.uk
Subject: RE: [IR-D] Viva la Quince Brigada 4

To play Christy Moore's Viva la Quince Brigada try -
http://www.christymoore.com/discography/17.htm

where it is titled
Vive La Quinte Brigada


-----Original Message-----

From: Sarah Morgan
dympna101[at]hotmail.com
Subject: RE: [IR-D] Viva la Quince Brigada

The song is 'Viva La Quinta Brigada' from the 1984 album 'Ride On' and is
one of two songs on the album written by Christy Moore.
Unfortunately, the copy of the album which I have doesn't provide lyrics.

Sarah Morgan.

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From: Kerby Miller
MillerK[at]missouri.edu
Subject: question

Is there another country in Western Europe (or in Europe, generally) that,
like the Irish Republic, does NOT allow its expatriate citizens the right to
vote in domestic elections?

I thought the Irish Republic was unique, but I don't want to make a sweeping
statement in case there are European countries with like policies.

I know that Uruguay, which from the 1970s apparently lost a huge proportion
of its population to a combination of state-sponsored internal terror and of
the effects of neo-liberal economic policies, does not allow its expatriates
to vote, although hopefully the new leftist government will change that
situation.

That certainly puts the Irish government's similar stance in a rather
unflattering context, doesn't it.

Thanks,

Kerby.

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Subject: Article, A NEW APPROACH TO EARLY CELTIC ART
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Email Patrick O'Sullivan

Subject: PROCEEDINGS- ROYAL IRISH ACADEMY SECTION C ARCHAEOLOGY CELTIC
STUDIES HISTORY LINGUISTICS AND LITERATURE

PROCEEDINGS- ROYAL IRISH ACADEMY SECTION C ARCHAEOLOGY CELTIC STUDIES
HISTORY LINGUISTICS AND LITERATURE VOL 104; NUMB 5; 2004 ISSN 0035-8991

p. ALL
A NEW APPROACH TO EARLY CELTIC ART
Frey, O.-H.

See earlier email about web site and PROCEEDINGS- ROYAL IRISH ACADEMY
SECTION C ARCHAEOLOGY CELTIC STUDIES HISTORY LINGUISTICS AND LITERATURE

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Subject: Ancient Order of Hibernians in the USA 4
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From: William Mulligan Jr.
billmulligan[at]murray-ky.net
Subject: RE: [IR-D] Ancient Order of Hibernians in the USA

On the AOH the most recent book I am aware of is John T. Ridge, Erin's Sons
in America: The Ancient Order of Hibernians published by the AOH 150
anniversary committee in 1986. It is a slender volume only 137 pages. John
O'Dea, History of the Ancient Order of Hibernians and Ladies Auxiliary was
published in several volumes in 1923. There was a multi-volume history in
1898 by McGrath but I can't find the full title, etc. just now. I'll send
it along when I find it. I found Ridge's book disappointing -- no
bibliography, only 42 footnotes, and what he has about the AOH in the
Michigan Copper Country is not correct.
The AOH is, of course, very important but I have waited years for answers to
letters to the national historian and archivist about records and
communication breaks off quickly if there is an answer (and usually there is
none). A real obstacle to doing research on the various Irish communities.



Bill
William H. Mulligan, Jr., Ph.D.
Professor of History
Murray State University
Murray KY 42071-3341 USA

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From: Anthony Mcnicholas
amcnich[at]blueyonder.co.uk
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Proposal, Journal of Irish Diaspora Studies 10

I too think it a v good idea. particularly as a focus point, as is this
list. a journal would complement the IR-D list perfectly

anthony

----- Original Message -----

> From: Liam Greenslade
> To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
> Subject: Journal of Irish diaspora studies
>
> I for one would welcome and support such a venture, long overdue in my
> opinion
>
> --
> Liam Greenslade
> Department of Sociology
> Trinity College Dublin
>
> Tel +353 (0)16082621
>

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From: Donal Mccracken
Mccrackend[at]ukzn.ac.za
Subject: Proposal, Journal of Irish Diaspora Studies

Dear Patrick,

I realise that the difficulties in starting and maintaining a journal of
Irish diaspora studies are formidable but I think the effort well worth
while. One of the things that excites we about such a project is that it
would open up to the wider Irish historical world knowledge of areas of
settlement where the Irish were a small but influential or at least
prominent minority.

Regards

Donal



Professor Donal McCracken
Dean
Faculty of Humanities, Development
and Social Sciences
Howard College
University of KwaZulu-Natal
Private Bag X54001
Durban
4000
South Africa

Tel: (031) 260-2006
Fax:(031) 260-2458
e-mail: mccrackend[at]ukzn.ac.za

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From: Oliver Marshall
oliver.marshall[at]brazilian-studies.oxford.ac.uk
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Votes for expatriate citizens

Kerby,

It may well be that Ireland is the only European country that doesn't permit
expatriate citizens to vote in national elections - although I seem to
remember reading somewhere that expatriates can only vote in the first round
of a Polish presidential election. Some countries impose a time limit on
how after emigrating long citizens retain such a right.

Like Ireland, San Marino didn't permit its expatriate citizens to vote. But
in the late 1940s and 1950s, elections in the tiny republic were closely
fought and the country used to pay 75 percent of the costs to its overseas
citizens to return to the San Marino and re-establish the country as their
place of domicile. Bus fares from Rimini were not a problem, but there's a
large (well, for San Marino!) expatriate population in Argentina and this
rather nice electoral practice was abandoned in the late 1990s due to its
huge cost. I'm pretty sure that citizens abroad can now vote by post, San
Marino's diplomatic network presumably being too limited to allow for
voting in consulates.

Certainly the global trend is to allow expatriate citizens to vote in
national elections -- Turkey, Mexico and the Philippines are amongst those
countries with huge overseas populations that are in the process of changing
electoral rules (or maybe by now they've made the change). But in reality
very few expatriates actually bother to exercise voting rights (and it can
be complicated to do so or the right is denied -- as is likely to be the
case with the forthcoming Zimbabwean elections). Despite the fears or hopes
of politicians, expatriate voting rights tend to be largely symbolic.

Oliver Marshall

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From: Molloy, Frank
FMolloy[at]csu.edu.au
Subject: RE: [IR-D] Query, Irish tatie hokers in Scotland 6


Jim and colleagues,

The 'Concise Ulster Dictionary' also lists 'tattie hoker' (so spelt under
'potato') with the definition 'a migrant worker who went over the Irish Sea
for the potato harvest'. TP Dolan's 'Dictionary of Hiberno-English' is a
bit more precise on 'tatie-howker', with the definition 'a (migrant)
potato-digger especially those from Co Donegal working in Scotland'.

The Donegal novelist Patrick McGill drew on his own experience of
'tatie-howking' for his 1915 novel, 'The Rat-Pit'.

Cheers,

Frank Molloy.


-----Original Message-----


From: Jim Doan
doan[at]nova.edu
Subject: RE: [IR-D] Query, Irish tatie hokers in Scotland 3



According to the Concise Ulster Dictionary, "hoke, hoak or howk"
means "to
dig (something) out; dig, root around; dig with the hands; scrape
out," etc.
and is said to derive from Scots and English dialectal howk,
Northumberland
and Western Scots also hoke, hoak, from Middle Low German holken "to
hollow
out" (I would assume it has the same Germanic root as standard
English
"hollow" as well).



James E. Doan, Ph.D.
Professor of Humanities, Nova Southeastern University
President, South Florida Irish Studies Consortium, Inc.
954-262-8207; Fax: 954-262-3881

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Subject: Proposed Liverpool University Press 'Diasporas' journal
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From: "J.C. Belchem"
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: DMI Journal

Could I point out that Liverpool University Press is currently drawing up a
business plan for a new journal , 'Diasporas, Migration and Identities', an
initiative designed to run in parallel with (and beyond) the pioneer
strategic research programme launched by the AHRB (Paddy has already posted
details of this). LUP already has a strong interest in publishing books on
the Irish diaspora (note recent publications by Enda Delaney, Paul O'Leary
et al and Don MacRaild's forthcoming magnum opus on Orangeism). I am sure
the Irish diaspora would find appropriate space within the new journal.
However, this is still in the early planning stages - I am sure LUP would
appreciate comments - and support!

Thanks, John Belchem


Professor John Belchem
School of History
University of Liverpool
9 Abercromby Square
Liverpool L69 7WZ
email: j.c.belchem[at]liv.ac.uk
phone: (0)151-794-2370
fax: (0)151-794-2366

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From: WallsAMP[at]aol.com

In reference to Sean Campbell's comments about U2's intro to Vertigo the
other day - Bono is evidently copying the intro to the 1964 hit Wooly Bully
by Sam the Sham and the Pharaohs which is counted in - uno dos one two tres
cuatro - the song's intro is legendary and is replicated in both of the
cover versions that I know - one by ex Eddie and the Hotrods harmonica
player Lew Lewis recorded in 1979, and the second by ex Dr Feelgood
guitarist Wilko Johnson in 1987. I'm suggesting that Bono is having fun with
a well-known song intro and not referring to his fourteenth album.

Paddy Walls