Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "Thomas J. Archdeacon"
Subject: Celtic, Rangers, etc.
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Thanks to Donald and Michael for sharing their stories. Old themes die
hard.

When I'm in the mood for a little mindless reading fun, I enjoy some mystery
books, especially those with a little urban grit and interesting locales.
I've become a fan of Ian Rankin's series on Detective John Rebus of
Edinburgh, partly because of its running commentary on that city and on
Scottish society. Rankin makes regular allusions to football, but his focus
is on the sectarian quality to the rivalry between Hearts and Hibs.

I think similar divisions may have once existed in American games,
especially baseball, but they were much less virulent, perhaps because the
teams in question rarely played each other. In Chicago, the White Sox are
the team of the South Side and the Cubs the favorites of the North Side.
The Sox are in the American League and the Cubs in the National, so games
between them are rare unless they make the playoffs, which they usually do
not. The South Side was the premier Irish area of the city at one time, and
I think there was probably a correlation between being Irish and being a Sox
fan. I happily point out that the one Archdeacon ever to play major league
ball played for the Sox in the 1920s. (Humoring his son, my father
suggested there was a family relationship, but I have no evidence of that).


I grew up in NYC and was (am) a Yankees fan. My immigrant parents knew
nothing about baseball, and I probably defaulted to the choice because I was
small, they were winning, and my friends liked them. My suspicion, however,
is that, at the beginning of the 20th century, the Giants (now in San
Francisco) were the Irish team. In NY, as in Chicago, the teams were in
separate leagues (Yanks = American; Giants = National). A recent book on
the Irish-American baseball star Ed Delahanty quotes the Giants' manager
stating, in 1896, that great teams had to have Irish players at their core
-- if only to tell the Germans what to do. By my mid-century childhood, any
connection between the Giants and the Irish was gone.

Boston once had two teams, the Red Sox (American) and the Braves (National).
Everyone in Boston is now a Sox fan (the Braves moved to Milwaukee in the
1950s and then to Atlanta in the 1970s). Likewise, St. Louis had the Browns
(American) and the Cardinals (National). I have no idea about possible
splits among fans. Perhaps somebody on the list knows. Boston would have
been an ideal spot for an ethnic/sectarian divide.

Early professional basketball had an ethnic flavor. NY was the home of the
Original Celtics, although the Celtics (with shamrock logo) are now a Boston
team. Professional basketball in Philadelphia has roots in a Jewish club
from the 1920s and 1930s. Indeed, in that era, basketball was considered a
Jewish name, with the skill of Jewish players explained in terms of the
deviousness and cunning stereotypically ascribed to their race.

Tom

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "Thomas J. Archdeacon"
Subject: Redneck Culture
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Today's "Wall Street Journal" had an interesting article by Thomas Sowell,
an African-American conservative who is the Rose and Milton Friedman Senior
Fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution. Sowell has written
frequently and controversially on the subject of ethnicity. The URL of the
Journal is http://wsj.com. I hope the following link will get you to the
article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB111448311657516833-email,00.html, but it
will be available only for the next seven days.

Sowell denies that either race or racism accounts for the disparities that
put blacks in a disadvantage position relative to whites. He calls
attention to recent study that reported "most of the black alumni of Harvard
were from either the West Indies or Africa, or were the children of West
Indian or African immigrants." He says the success of some blacks refutes
any general theory of racial inferiority. Likewise, he argues that racists
would not and could not distinguish between blacks descended from Africans
enslaved in the U.S. and those never enslaved or enslaved elsewhere.
Therefore, he concludes that U.S.-bred blacks suffer a cultural
disadvantage.

Sowell explains that the source of the cultural disadvantage came from their
concentration in the South, where, even before the Civil War, whites too
lagged behind other Americans in terms of education, literacy, etc. The
roots of the socioeconomic and intellectual differences between North and
South lay in the recruitment of the European settler population. "The
people who settled in the South came from different regions of Britain than
the people who settled in the North -- and they differed as radically on the
other side of the Atlantic as they did here -- that is, before they had ever
seen a black slave. ... The culture of the people who were called 'rednecks'
and 'crackers' before they ever got on the boats to cross the Atlantic was a
culture that produced far lower levels of intellectual and economic
achievement, as well as far higher levels of violence and sexual
promiscuity. That culture had its own way of talking, not only in the
pronunciation of particular words but also in a loud, dramatic style of
oratory with vivid imagery, repetitive phrases and repetitive cadences."

Although Sowell never identifies the British region from which the Southern
settlers came, the answer will be obvious to members of this list. It seems
that, in Sowell, we may have the anti-Webb. Lest you have forgotten, there
was some stir a few months ago when former Secretary of the Navy James Webb
published a book highlighting the contributions of the Scotch-Irish to the
U.S. Now, we know that, in addition to everything else they accomplished,
they created "black culture." That gives a new spin to the term "Black
Irish."

We now have a unified theory of African-American history. The Irish are to
blame for everything. Rightists blame the Scotch-Irish of the American
South for all the attributes that allegedly make blacks unfit for success,
and Leftists blame (Catholic) Irish of the American North for shafting the
blacks once they escaped slavery. (In earlier work, Sowell had problems
telling the difference between the Scotch Irish and the rest of them). It's
a grand world, isn't it?

Tom

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: Celtic, Rangers,
Ireland and sectarian conflict in today's Scotland 2
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

From: Michael Donnelly
mikedx[at]yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Celtic, Rangers, Ireland and sectarian conflict in
today's Scotland

P:

In 1982, I found myself, quite by accident, on the ferry from Scotland to
Ulster, full of drunken fans returning from the game in Glasgow.

They seemed to be 100% Orange, and were soon singing militant songs ("Here
Lies a Soldier", etc.) and chanting anti-Catholic slogans.

I was terrified they would discover the Irish-American Catholic in their
midst and chuck me overboard.

Michael Donnelly

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: More on William Blake
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Email Patrick O'Sullivan


Our attention has been drawn to the following items...

Keenness of Intellect and Mystical Feeling: William Blake's Influence on
James Joyce's Ulysses
Katie Mulcrone

'...The life of William Blake, as illustrated by James Joyce, emerges as a
series of divine postures - Blake the gentle brother, Blake the creator,
Blake the vessel for divinities, and Blake the madman killed by his own
genius. Remember that Joyce gave two lectures in Trieste. The first
covered the life and work of Daniel de Foe. The parallel almost draws
itself: both men dealt in gritty reality. But Blake? Blake the innocent?
Blake the finder of lost children? It's hard to place Blake in Joyce's
world, hard to justify Joyce's strong sympathy with the poet. (The only
mysticism apparent to me in Joyce's character is superstition.) Blake is an
idealist; the miracle worker who forges a happy union between heaven and
hell. Joyce does not share this aspiration. He grounds himself in the
everyday. Yet both men dedicated themselves to purity of craft: Joyce,
immobile for hours at his desk, worrying over a single sentence and Blake
"singing, as always, of the ideal world, of truth, the intellect and the
divinity of the imagination"...'

Full text at...

http://www.katie.galaxyhit.com/ulysses.html


Blake's heaven
Only one British artist would make it on to a list of the world's all-time
greatest
Jonathan Jones
Monday April 25, 2005
The Guardian

'...William Blake is far and away the greatest artist Britain has ever
produced. I feel both elated and embarrassed to say that, because in recent
years the critical reputation of the poet, printmaker and radical prophet of
the French revolutionary era has been slipping, to say the least. Blake's
Songs of Innocence and Experience and The Marriage of Heaven and Hell are
never likely to be shifted from their place near the heart of English
literature. But Blake thought of himself as a visual artist; he illuminated
his self-published writings, illustrated Dante and Chaucer, and painted
singular oils such as The Ghost of a Flea.

He has become one of those monuments whom it is considered timely to knock
off their pedestal. In the 1990s he was given short shrift in Andrew
Graham-Dixon's influential television history of British art, and when Tate
Britain celebrated the millennium with a Blake show the vogue for belittling
the Lambeth visionary went mainstream. I sat in front of the Late Review
with my jaw hanging down at the spectacle of supposedly cultured people
sneering at his draughtsmanship.

The latest belittling comes from academic research just announced that
exposes him as a fumbling craftsman who (shock) didn't really create his
prints in a starburst of insight but laboured patiently. The biggest insult
in Blake's eyes, though, must be that Tate is unlikely to buy his recently
rediscovered watercolours for Blair's Grave (no election reference intended)
because it is keen to purchase Sir Joshua Reynolds' Portrait of Omai. Blake
said Reynolds was "hired to Depress Art". Yet now apparently he is to lose
out to the Georgian portraitist...'

'...What is it that British art lacks? The extremes of existence, the
contrary states of the human soul - good and evil. British art tends to be
socially and topographically acute, but the greatest painters have stood on
more metaphysical ground. They have speculated on life and death, angels and
devils. Just like Blake...'

Full text at...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1469453,00.html#article_continue

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: Article, Memory and the City: Contemporary Dublin
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Email Patrick O'Sullivan

Our attention has been drawn to the following item...

People with access to Project Muse in the USA might be able to get at the
full text...

College Literature
32.2, Spring 2005
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/college_literature/toc/lit32.2.html

P.O'S.



College Literature
32.2, Spring 2005
General Issue

Kincaid, Andrew.

Memory and the City: Urban Renewal and Literary Memoirs in Contemporary
Dublin

* Urban renewal -- Ireland -- Dublin.
* Autobiography -- Irish authors -- History and criticism.
* Dublin (Ireland) -- In literature.

Abstract:

Changing cities lend themselves to reflections on memory, on what is
lost and what is gained. Many of the major theorists of modernity lived in
cities that were undergoing rapid development. The history of modernity in
Ireland is no exception to this combination of urbanism and modernism. Each
phase of the modernization project in Ireland's capital has produced debates
about architecture and planning alongside literary and historical
reflections. We see these debates in the 1960s, during which reforms geared
toward internationalizing the economy and society were enacted, and we see
them in the 1990s, when a new wave of globalization transformed the urban
center of Dublin into a tourist destination and financial hub. Into this mix
of gentrification and renewal came a literary upsurge, the updated urban
memoir. This paper theorizes the relationship between memory, memoir and
urban renewal.

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Peter Hart
Subject: Re: Celtic, Rangers, etc.
In-Reply-To:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Meanwhile, in Newfoundland (and perhaps other parts of Canada) in the '50s
and '60s, the Montreal Canadians were the 'Catholic' hockey team, while the
Toronto Maple Leafs were their 'Protestant' counterpart. For this, see the
book by Wayne Johnson (and movie), the Divine Ryans. And I have a vague
feeling that Catholic (Irish) and Protestant teams existed in both Montreal
and Toronto before the war, so there were intracity rivalries as well. I
don't think much violence ever resulted, however, and this aspect of things
has almost completely disappeared.

Peter Hart

From: Bill Mulligan
Subject: Celtic, Rangers; Yankees, Giants
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

The area around Yankee Stadium in NYC was an Irish neighborhood when the
stadium was built and for quite some time before. My father and grandmother
were both born in the area and one of my great-grandfathers had a saloon there.
That may explain the Irish being Yankee fans in New York, if it is so. I'm not
sure - I grew up rooting for the Giants.

The role of the Irish in baseball in the nineteenth century is pretty
extensive. There was a team named the Celtics in the Upper Peninsula League in
the 1880s and 1890s. This seems to have started as league for community-based
teams and escalated into a professional league quickly. Many of the players -
and some of the team owners -- were Irish.

In descriptions of the activites at various excursions and picnics organized by
Copper County Irish groups in Michigan there are many references to baseball
being played, but only one reference that I've found to hurling and none to
football (soccer).

Bill Mulligan

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: Using Our IR-D email address - Be Alert
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Email Patrick O'Sullivan

Whilst Bill Mulligan was looking after the IR-D list in my absence - and
thank you, Bill - we set things up so that, in order to OK a message, he
simply had to click on the OK button. Because to ask him to do more would
have been to ask too much...

And whilst I was unwell, I did the same thing. When messages came in to
IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
I simply clicked OK.

Just giving myself fewer chores...

BUT the Jiscmail version of Listserv is so configured as to give the email
address of the original sender in the FROM line, in this form...

The Irish Diaspora Studies List [IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK]; on behalf of; William
Mulligan Jr. [billmulligan[at]MURRAY-KY.NET]
or
The Irish Diaspora Studies List [IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK]; on behalf of; Kerby
Miller [MillerK[at]MISSOURI.EDU]

In SOME email systems if you then hit REPLY the message will be addressed to
the original sender - in these examples, billmulligan[at]MURRAY-KY.NET or
MillerK[at]MISSOURI.EDU. Not to IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK.

And some IR-D members do not like their email addresses to be revealed in
this way.

Since the IR-D move to Jiscmail I have dealt with these problems by taking
in all emails sent to IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK, recasting them, and making all
IR-D emails seem to come from me. This meant that I was also able to pick
up messages clearly meant for IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK, but sent to me by the
un-alert. It was all a bit of a chore.

So, in the few weeks when we have simply clicked OK, the sky did not fall
in, the sun still rose amidst the morning dew...

I think I'll go on just clicking OK...

To sum up...

1.
If you want an email to be distributed to the Irish Diaspora list make sure
that you send it to the list address, IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK.

2.
Do make sure - especially when you REPLY to an existing IR-D message - that
your email is addressed to IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK.

3.
Do note that if you send a message to IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK for distribution
your email address will be revealed in the IR-D FROM line.

4.
If you are not happy about your email address being revealed in this way,
feel free to send your message to me for onward distribution. Do make your
wishes clear.

5.
And, of course, if you are doubtful about the appropriateness for IR-D of a
message, feel free to send the message to me for discussion. And I will go
on collecting material from the usual sources for the Irish Diaspora list.

Paddy


--
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit

Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Personal Fax 0044 (0) 709 236 9050

Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/
Irish Diaspora Net
http://www.irishdiaspora.net

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Social Sciences and Humanities
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: Celtic, Rangers,
Ireland and sectarian conflict in today's Scotland 3
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

From: P.Maume[at]Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Celtic, Rangers, Ireland and sectarian conflict in
today's Scotland 2

From: Patrick Maume
During the UDA feud of late 2002/early 2003 between supporters and opponents
of Johnny "Mad Dog" Adair, the South-East Antrim UDA "brigadier" John Gregg
& his second-in-command were killed by supporters of Adair shortly after
they returned (via ferry) from attending a Rangers match in Glasgow (a
regular habit of theirs).
Best wishes,
Patrick

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: Living in a changing State
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

=20
From: MacEinri, Piaras=20
p.maceinri[at]ucc.ie
Subject: Living in a changing State

From today's Irish Times

Piaras

Paper provides ethnic platform
Kathryn Hayes =09

One of the oldest provincial newspapers in the country has started
publishing community notes in foreign languages.

Following on the success of a column in Polish, the Limerick Leader - =
which
was founded in the late 18th century - has opened up its pages to =
Russian,
Chinese and African columnists.

The "Ethnic Limerick Feature" has emerged from the growing number of
non-nationals now living in Limerick, according to Leader deputy editor
Eugene Phelan.

The 2002 census reported that out of the 80,000 people living in =
Limerick,
5,000 were non-nationals. It is estimated that this figure has risen
substantially, particularly since the accession of eastern European
countries to the EU last May.

Mr Phelan said the Leader got a "tremendous reaction" to the Polish =
column
it started six weeks ago. "As far as I'm aware we are the only paper in =
the
country printing community notes in foreign languages."

Keeping up to date on news from the Chinese community is Dr Erzeng Xue, =
a
chemistry lecturer at the University of Limerick, who has been living in
Limerick for 12 years.

Lylian Fopabong, from Cameroon, writes about African issues. She came to
Limerick over a year and a half ago seeking asylum, having worked as a =
radio
presenter and news reporter for a radio station in Yaound=E9. "Because I =
am an
asylum seeker I cannot work, and I miss writing and journalism; I am =
looking
forward to writing this column," said Ms Fopabong.

Dimitri Zaraiski writes the Russian column. A native of Belarus, Mr =
Zaraiski
says he came to Ireland to make a better life for himself economically.

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Maureen E Mulvihill
Subject: Further to the Sportin' Irish
Comments: To: billmulligan[at]MURRAY-KY.NET
Comments: cc: Daniel Harris
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Bill Mulligan may enjoy the recent work of Jerrold I. Casway on the Irish in
baseball, "Ed Delahanty in the Emerald Age of Baseball" (Notre Dame UP,
2004). I know of Casway through his work on the Flight of the Earls (1607),
one of my interests. (Me, I've never played baseball.)

Also pertinent is "Queen of Diamonds" (W. Bloomfield Hills, Michigan:
Altwerger & Mandel, 1992, w/ many good archival photos), by my cousin,
Michael Betzold, formerly of The Detroit News, about baseball culture in ol'
Corktown, Detroit, an Irish enclave where my parents & their (old-style)
Irish parents lived. Betzold's book principally reconstructs the demise of
Tiger Stadium in Detroit, a sad moment, esp for the Irish of the city. This
book was co-authored by an American-Irish pal of Betzold's, Ethan Casey.

All the best for your work, Bill Mulligan, and I've enjoyed watching your
virtual self over the Irish Diaspora List,

In the spirit,

Maureen E. Mulvihill, PhD
Fellow, Princeton Research Forum, NJ
Residence: Park Slope, Brooklyn, NY

Advisory Editor,
ABC-CLIO Encyclopedia of Irish-American Relations
2 vols (forthcoming '06); contributor, "Mary Robinson" & "Michael Smurfit"
____

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: Celtic, Rangers,
Ireland and sectarian conflict in today's Scotland 4
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

From: Dan Leach=20
dploy[at]ihug.com.au
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Celtic, Rangers, Ireland and sectarian conflict in
today's Scotland 3

I lived in Scotland for some time in the mid-1990s, and have long had an
interest both in minority identities and football (soccer), so I feel I =
can
contribute something to this discussion.

The Protestant/Catholic divide =E0 la Rangers and Celtic has (or perhaps =
'did
have') analogues throughout England and Scotland. Most of these are pale
vestiges now, with only some lingering sectarian identity mostly =
expressed
through team colours and pub songs. The Edinburgh divide (Hearts and =
Hibs,
as previously noted) is, in my experience, much more about Edinburgh vs.
Leith these days than Protestant vs. Catholic, although I'm sure some
sectarian passion remains in some corners of the stands. It's =
interesting to
note also that when Hearts (or 'The
Jamboes') play Rangers there's as much animosity as when they play =
Hibs...
it simply morphs into east vs. west, Auld Reekie vs. the Weegies. Same =
when
Celtic plays Hibs. So, these days, any fan motivated by raw sectarian =
hatred
alone aligns him or herself with either Celtic or Rangers, regardless of
where in Scotland (or Northern Ireland, as
noted) they actually live. Note too that neither team uses the prefix
'Glasgow': their appeal and fanbase is national, if not global.

These cleavages linger in Manchester (City vs. United); Dundee (Dundee =
vs.
Dundee United); and even Bristol and Sheffield -- mostly large ports or
industrial centres where large numbers of Irish Catholics immigrant =
workers
would have congregated, formed sporting/cultural clubs, and provoked a
'nativist' Protestant reaction. Liverpool is an interesting
case: Everton was formed by Protestants, but seems to have evolved into =
the
team of choice for Catholics. Liverpool FC has developed strong links =
with
Celtic FC, and you'll often see the Irish tricolour at their matches, =
but
I'm reliably informed the 'the Reds' used to particpate in Orange =
marches.
Perhaps others know more about this.

As for the Old Firm, I was once vehemently assured by a drunken Rangers =
fan
(or 'Hun' as Celtic fans call them -- interesting Hanoverian vs.=20
Jacobite overtones!), that the grass at Rangers' Ibrox stadium was not
green. "It's Kentucky blue!" No, I don't think he was joking. Similarly,
Dundee United (Catholic team, originally) wear "tangerine". Don't ever =
call
it "orange".

To a 'Hun', Celtic fans are "Fenians".

There is one team that opts out of all this, at least in its supporters
songs, but I can't recall whether it's Partick Thistle, Hamilton =
Academicals
or perhaps Kilmarnock. Anyway, when they play either of the Old Firm =
they've
been known to sing, "We hate Royal blue and Fenian green/ So *#![at] the =
Pope
and *#[at]! the Queen!"

DL

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: Argentina to honour its Irish-born hero with docks statue,
Dublin 2
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

From: ultancowley[at]eircom.net
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Argentina to honour its Irish-born hero with docks
statue, Dublin


Carmel
Thats great news - for the Argentinians! Its a pity that there is no
evidence of a desire on anyone's part to erect a statue at Dublin Docks
(specifically, at the old B&I site at the North Wall) to commemorate the
many thousands of migrant labourers who left from there for Britain.

There is of course a tableau nearby to the Famine emigrants but their fate
is considered sanctified by its involuntary nature and by British oppression
whereas that of post-Independence emigrants is down to ourselves and
therefore an embarrassment.

Ultan


(Moderator's note: I have received a couple of emails, wanting to note the
previous unhappy history of the Argentinian navy, and seeing events in
Dublin, and in Foxford, as part of the navy's attempts to rehabilitate
itself. I have decided that that is not an appropriate discussion for the
IR-D list. But let it be noted. P.O'S.)

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: Caid football
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

=20
From: Dymphna.Lonergan[at]flinders.edu.au=20
Subject: caid football

I'm hoping someone has information on the football game called 'caid':
'The Irishmen's game in 1843 was called "Caid", a forerunner of Gaelic
football, with teams of unlimited size, play of unlimited duration (or =
until
the players were thirsty)) and of considerable violence.'
My question is was caid played in any particular part of =
Ireland?-perhaps
southern and rural as the name is Irish, and not Irish English.

Sl=E1n

Dymphna

Go raibh t=FA daibhir i m=ED-=E1idh/May you be poor in ill-luck Agus =
saibhir i
mbeannachta=ED/rich in blessings Go mall ag d=E9anamh namhaid/slow to =
make
enemies go luath ag d=E9anamh carad/quick to make friends


Dr Dymphna Lonergan
Professional English Convenor
Flinders University
(08) 8201 2079
Research interests: Business English,Plain English, Australian English,
Hiberno English, Irish language words in English, Anglo-Irish =
literature,
Irish Australian literature

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "James A. Lundon [at] Yahoo!"
Subject: Re: Caid football
In-Reply-To: 6667
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dymphna,

You might be best to direct your query at the foremost Gaelic
Football forum on the web at the moment...=20

http://www.gaaboard.com

There are other Gaelic Games forums where the question might
also get a response, including:

http://www.anfearrua.com
http://www.sheepstealers.com
http://members.boardhost.com/dubsforum
http://www.hoganstand.com
http://premierview.proboards1.com
http://www.kilkennycats.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=3D1
http://www.rebelgaa.com

(Apologies in advance if I've omitted any other good GAA
sites.)

I also have access to most of the books that make up the
bibliography of the GAA so if you need help in that area,
please let me know...=20

Good luck,

James.

--- Patrick O'Sullivan wrote:
> =20
> From: Dymphna.Lonergan[at]flinders.edu.au=20
> Subject: caid football
>=20
> I'm hoping someone has information on the football game called 'caid':
> 'The Irishmen's game in 1843 was called "Caid", a forerunner of Gaelic
> football, with teams of unlimited size, play of unlimited duration (or
> until
> the players were thirsty)) and of considerable violence.'
> My question is was caid played in any particular part of
> Ireland?-perhaps
> southern and rural as the name is Irish, and not Irish English.
>=20
> Sl=E1n
>=20
> Dymphna
>=20
> Go raibh t=FA daibhir i m=ED-=E1idh/May you be poor in ill-luck Agus sa=
ibhir i
> mbeannachta=ED/rich in blessings Go mall ag d=E9anamh namhaid/slow to m=
ake
> enemies go luath ag d=E9anamh carad/quick to make friends
>=20
>=20
> Dr Dymphna Lonergan
> Professional English Convenor
> Flinders University
> (08) 8201 2079
> Research interests: Business English,Plain English, Australian English,
> Hiberno English, Irish language words in English, Anglo-Irish
> literature,
> Irish Australian literature
>=20

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: CFP Third Annual Irish Studies Conference, Sunderland
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

From: Alison Younger
alison_younger[at]yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Irish Studies Conference

The University of Sunderland
Third Annual Irish Studies Conference
(incorporating the inaugural North East of England Celtic Studies Symposium)

The Word, The Icon and The Ritual (II): Lands of Saints and Scholars

Sir Tom Cowie Campus at Saint Peter's, Sunderland
11-13 November 2005
Following the success of our last two international conferences:
Representing-Ireland: Past, present and Future, [2003] and The Word, The
Icon and The Ritual, [2004] the University of Sunderland are soliciting
papers for an interdisciplinary conference which will run from 11-13
November 2005. This year we are also delighted to welcome other Celtic
Studies scholars to engage with the rich diversity of this annual
conference.
The conference organisers hope to represent a wide range of
approaches to Irish and Celtic culture from academics and non--academics
alike. Performances, roundtables, collaborative projects, and other
non--traditional presentations are encouraged in addition to conference
papers. As last year we welcome submissions for panels and papers under the
thematic headings of: The Word, The Icon, The Ritual in the following areas:
Literature, Performing Arts, History, Politics, Folklore and Mythology,
Ireland (other Celtic countries/regions) in Theory, Anthropology, Sociology,
Art and Art history, Music, Dance, Media and Film Studies, Cultural Studies,
and Studies of the Diaspora. North American scholars, international
scholars, and postgraduate students are all encouraged to submit proposals
to the conference organisers. We also welcome submission of proposals for
panels and in absentia papers.

Readings by Bernard O'Donoghue

Plenary Speakers include:

Professor Robert Welch - University of Ulster
Professor Michael O'Neill - University of Durham
Professor Werner Huber, University of Chemnitz, Germany

Proposals of not more than 500 words should be sent by 2 August 2005 at the
latest to:
Dr Alison O'Malley-Younger
alison_younger[at]yahoo.co.uk
and copied to the conference administrator - Susan Cottam
susan.cottam[at]sunderland.ac.uk



Slan agus beannacht

Alison O'Malley-Younger [Dr]
Department of English
University of Sunderland

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: Using Our IR-D email address - Be Alert 2
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Email Patrick O'Sullivan

At the risk of over-taxing brains...

Further to my Be Alert message, below...

There are some consequences to our decision to simply click the OK button
when members send messages to
IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK

Heretofore I have tried to protect IR-D members from these consequences,
which are a bit silly.

1.
Acknowledgements

There is another vagary of the Jiscmail version of Listserv...

Acknowledgements of emails sent to IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK is under the control
of each INDIVIDUAL IR-D member.

There is no way I can sort this out, globally, for everyone, once and for
all. It has to be done one at a time.

In your individual section in Jiscmail there is an Acknowledgements section
- which gives 3 options...

No acknowledgements [NOACK NOREPRO]
Short message confirming receipt [ACK NOREPRO]
Receive copy of own postings [NOACK REPRO]

The default is Number 2, which means that if you send a message to
IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK you will get a short message confirming receipt, but you
will NOT get the message that is distributed via IR-D.

I think most people will want Number 3...
Receive copy of own postings [NOACK REPRO]

I will send out again the message about accessing your individual section in
Jiscmail.

Obviously, if anyone is really stuck, contact me.

2.
When you correctly hit REPLY and send a further message to
IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK, the resulting distributed message has a SUBJECT line
which takes the form
Re: [IR-D] Caid football
to give a recent example...

This means that our little 'flag' [IR-D] is NOT at the beginning of the
line. Which is annoying for people who have been using this as an
organising device. And it is possible to imagine circumstances where this
might cause confusion.

3.
So, do Be Alert. Send messages to IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK when, and only when,
you mean to send messages to IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK.

But this is a moderated list and stuff must be approved before it can get
through.

Paddy


-----Original Message-----
Email Patrick O'Sullivan

Whilst Bill Mulligan was looking after the IR-D list in my absence - and
thank you, Bill - we set things up so that, in order to OK a message, he
simply had to click on the OK button. Because to ask him to do more would
have been to ask too much...

And whilst I was unwell, I did the same thing. When messages came in to
IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK I simply clicked OK.

Just giving myself fewer chores...

BUT the Jiscmail version of Listserv is so configured as to give the email
address of the original sender in the FROM line, in this form...

The Irish Diaspora Studies List [IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK]; on behalf of; William
Mulligan Jr. [billmulligan[at]MURRAY-KY.NET] or The Irish Diaspora Studies List
[IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK]; on behalf of; Kerby Miller [MillerK[at]MISSOURI.EDU]

In SOME email systems if you then hit REPLY the message will be addressed to
the original sender - in these examples, billmulligan[at]MURRAY-KY.NET or
MillerK[at]MISSOURI.EDU. Not to IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK.

And some IR-D members do not like their email addresses to be revealed in
this way.

Since the IR-D move to Jiscmail I have dealt with these problems by taking
in all emails sent to IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK, recasting them, and making all
IR-D emails seem to come from me. This meant that I was also able to pick
up messages clearly meant for IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK, but sent to me by the
un-alert. It was all a bit of a chore.

So, in the few weeks when we have simply clicked OK, the sky did not fall
in, the sun still rose amidst the morning dew...

I think I'll go on just clicking OK...

To sum up...

1.
If you want an email to be distributed to the Irish Diaspora list make sure
that you send it to the list address, IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK.

2.
Do make sure - especially when you REPLY to an existing IR-D message - that
your email is addressed to IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK.

3.
Do note that if you send a message to IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK for distribution
your email address will be revealed in the IR-D FROM line.

4.
If you are not happy about your email address being revealed in this way,
feel free to send your message to me for onward distribution. Do make your
wishes clear.

5.
And, of course, if you are doubtful about the appropriateness for IR-D of a
message, feel free to send the message to me for discussion. And I will go
on collecting material from the usual sources for the Irish Diaspora list.

Paddy


--
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit

Email Patrick O'Sullivan Email Patrick
O'Sullivan Personal Fax 0044 (0) 709 236 9050

Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/
Irish Diaspora Net
http://www.irishdiaspora.net

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Social Sciences and Humanities University of Bradford Bradford
BD7 1DP Yorkshire England

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: Managing IR-D at Jiscmail
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

From Email Patrick O'Sullivan

My standard email about Managing IR-D at Jiscmail...

Jiscmail knows you by your email address.

For those wanting to use the Web interface...

Go to...

http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/

On the left hand side you can click on
Register Password
And go to the Register Password screen.

Follow the instructions there. Put in your email address, the email address
by which you are known to the IR-D list.
Choose your Password

Your chosen Password is then confirmed by email in the usual way.

When you have registered your Password and received confirmation by email
you can go BACK to Jiscmail's web site, and, again on the left hand side,
you can click on Subscriber's Corner and get to a new screen. There, using
your email address and your Password, you can enter your Subscriber's
Corner, and set up various IR-D list options...

You can suspend your membership for a time, and so on...

You can decide what Acknowledgements you would like. I would recommend
Number 3...
Receive copy of own postings [NOACK REPRO]

Such changes can also be done by email - see the instructions in the
Jiscmail Welcome email...

P.O'S.

--
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit

Email Patrick O'Sullivan Email Patrick
O'Sullivan Personal Fax 0044 (0) 709 236 9050

Irish-Diaspora list Irish Diaspora Studies
http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/
Irish Diaspora Net Archive http://www.irishdiaspora.net

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Social Sciences and Humanities University of Bradford Bradford
BD7 1DP Yorkshire England

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Matthew Barlow
Subject: Re: Celtic, Rangers, etc.
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Peter Hart is correct to recall the Canadiens (or Habs) v. the Leafs in=20
Newfoundland. Here in Montr=E9al, the home of the Canadiens, it is=20
interesting to look at the history of the team. They were founded by an=20
Irishman, George Ambrose O'Brien, and they have been owned by Anglo-Irish=
=20
for most of their history since their founding in 1909 (the Habs are=20
currently owned by an American). Nevertheless, despite this Irish=20
ownership, in the early years, the Habs were the French team in Montr=E9a=
l, as=20
opposed to the Anglo/Irish teams, the Wanderers and then the Maroons.

Violence did occur, to a relatively small degree, however, around games=20
between the Canadiens and the Maroons in the 1920s and early 1930s, befor=
e=20
the folding of the Maroons. But the real violence tended to occur in the=
=20
1890s when the Montr=E9al Shamrocks, an Irish Catholic team, played the=20
various Anglo-Protestant teams: the Amateur Athletic Association or the=20
Victorias. Most of this violence, however, was between the fans.

But the rowdiness surrounding hockey in Montr=E9al paled next to that=20
surrounding lacrosse and matches between the Shamrocks Lacrosse Club and=20
their Anglo-Protestant competitors in Montr=E9al in the 1880s and 90s,=20
particularly the Amateur Athletic Association. The games were intense an=
d=20
violent, but so too were the fans, especially the Irish Catholic supporte=
rs=20
of the Shamrocks. So concerned with the boisterousness of the fans were =
the=20
Shamrocks' bourgeois (or "lace curtain") Irish Catholic owners that they=20
constructed their clubhouse and playing field far from the heart of the=20
Montr=E9al Irish Catholic community in Griffintown. Even with the advent=
of=20
public transit, the journey from the Griff to the Shamrocks' grounds at w=
hat=20
was then the north end of the city was a long one. Attempts were also ma=
de=20
to make life as uncomfortable as possible for the working class fans with=
in=20
the grounds. None of this worked, and the ownership also was mindful of =
the=20
fact that they could expect crowds of 10,000 for championship matches=20
against the AAA or the Montr=E9al Lacrosse Club.

Most of this has faded in Canada, however, and violence surrounding=20
professional sport seems to have gone to the wayside, at least in the wak=
e=20
of the removal of the Qu=E9bec Nordiques hockey club to Denver in 1995. =
The=20
Nordiques were the Canadiens' main rival, and violence was not uncommon i=
n=20
the stands of Le Colis=E9e in Qu=E9bec or the Forum in Montr=E9al, as the=
=20
partisans of both sides got more beer into them (at one point, the Nordiq=
ues=20
were owned by O'Keefe Breweries and the Habs by Molson Breweries, thus ev=
en=20
beer became a point of contention between the two).

Cheers,
Matthew Barlow
Concordia University
Montr=E9al (QC).
----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Peter Hart"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Celtic, Rangers, etc.


> Meanwhile, in Newfoundland (and perhaps other parts of Canada) in the '=
50s
> and '60s, the Montreal Canadians were the 'Catholic' hockey team, while=
=20
> the
> Toronto Maple Leafs were their 'Protestant' counterpart. For this, see=
=20
> the
> book by Wayne Johnson (and movie), the Divine Ryans. And I have a vagu=
e
> feeling that Catholic (Irish) and Protestant teams existed in both=20
> Montreal
> and Toronto before the war, so there were intracity rivalries as well. =
I
> don't think much violence ever resulted, however, and this aspect of=20
> things
> has almost completely disappeared.
>
> Peter Hart=20

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "d.m.jackson"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

It is also interesting that Manchester Utd became increasingly identified as
an Irish Catholic team after the second world war. This was partly due to
the messianic managership of Sir Matt Busby (who was a devout Catholic), and
it was apparently common to see priests at Old Trafford in thr 50s and 60s.
Nobby Stiles, a renowned Utd player from the Busby stable, famously (and
perhaps apocryphally) went to confession on the saturday morning of the '66
world cup final because he had eaten steak at a banquet with England
colleagues on the previous day.

It is revealing too that Morrissey (of Smiths fame) is a vocal United fan.
And it was thought remarkable that the Gallagher brothers of Oasis should
support City.

Can anyone else throw any light on these (supposed) sectarian affiliations?

Dan Jackson
University of Northumbria

====
This e-mail is intended solely for the addressee. It may contain private and
confidential information. If you are not the intended addressee, please take
no action based on it nor show a copy to anyone. Please reply to this e-mail
to highlight the error. You should also be aware that all electronic mail
from, to, or within Northumbria University may be the subject of a request
under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and related legislation, and
therefore may be required to be disclosed to third parties.
This e-mail and attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving
Northumbria University. Northumbria University will not be liable for any
losses as a result of any viruses being passed on.