Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Paul O'Leary
Subject: the Irish language and the historians
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The relative absence of debate about language shift in nineteenth-century
Ireland is curious when viewed from the perspective of discussions in some
other countries, especially so when one considers the vigorous state of
Irish historical studies. I have in mind, in particular, the multi-volume
social history of the Welsh language that was published a few years ago,
which involved social historians, sociologists, socio-linguists, and others.
This major project took our understanding of the social history of the
language to a completely new level by providing an enormous body of data as
well detailed studies of particular regions and a wide variety of linguistic
domains. In my view, the study of the Irish language in the
nineteenth-century would benefit enormously from comparative analysis with
the fate of other non-state languages, especially in the UK, but also in
parts of the Austro-Hungarian empire and Spain. Doing so would allow a more
sophisticated analysis than seems to have been deployed so far; I'm thinking
of debates about the relative significance of demographic change (esp.
migration), urbanisation, the role of an autonomous print culture and levels
of literacy, as well as subjective evaluations of the cultural worth of a
language relative to state languages. It seems to me that the dominant
'narrative' of language shift in nineteenth-century Ireland among historians
is a functionalist one - i.e. there were economic benefits in shifting from
one language to another, so large numbers of people made a simple economic
calculation and turned their backs on Irish. This view has meshed nicely
with certain sorts of modernisation theory. However, research on other
non-state languages suggests that this is unlikely to be the whole story and
that language shift on the scale seen around the middle decades of the
century especially requires consideration of a more complex set of
questions. I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that the relationship
between structural demographic conditions and cultural perceptions was a
highly dynamic one, and that the outcomes were by no means certain.



I'm trying to write something on this theme at the moment and these are just
preliminary thoughts, but it might be useful to the discussion.



Best wishes



Paul





Dr Paul O'Leary

Adran Hanes a Hanes Cymru / Dept. of History and Welsh History,

Prifysgol Cymru Aberystwyth / University of Wales Aberystwyth

Aberystwyth

Ceredigion, SY23 3DY

UK



Tel: 01970 622842



Ebost: ppo[at]aber.ac.uk / Email: ppo[at]aber.ac.uk

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Muiris Mag Ualghairg
Subject: Re: the Irish language and the historians
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I would assume that Paul's reference to the UK is because he was
talking about the 19th century when Ireland was a part of the UK. I
would be interested in looking at the position of the various
non-state languages in the UK at that time. Why did Welsh survive as a
major community language, the language of villages, of fairs, of towns
and of normal every day discourse across large parts of the country in
the 19th century, whereas Irish had already lost so much territory.
What factor made their situations so different.

Muiris

On 23/08/07, Carmel McCaffrey wrote:
> Paul,
>
> There is a major difference between the language issue in Ireland and
> that in Wales I believe - or any other country which is not an
> autonomous state. In Ireland after independence the drive to assert the
> Irish language as a necessary expression of culture was lessoned I
> believe because of the establishment of a new Irish state. Growing up
> in Ireland in the twentieth century there was no doubt that a strong
> sense of Irishness was being established - and therefore a strong sense
> of separate identity from England - in many aspects of Irish life,
> including the educational system. Language was no longer seen by many
> as the imperative expression of a separate and valid culture as had been
> deemed by Douglas Hyde as a necessary way of "de-anglicizing" Ireland.
> The removal of the British presence in the early century had done that.
>
> My parents for example had no truck with the Irish language revival
> movement or anything connected to the Gaelic league types- yet each time
> we went over to Britain for visits or holidays my father would
> invariably make the remark on our return journey that "thank God we
> broke away from this bloody crowd".
>
> As regards the reasons why the Irish language shrank so fast in the
> nineteenth century - there is nothing new is saying that it was likely a
> combination of factors - English language schools for children [state
> intervention] and the economic need to learn English. The only thing
> that changes in the narrative surrounding the issue apparently is which
> of these gets to be considered the most dominant reason.
>
> By the way I presume you are not Ireland Republic of Ireland in your
> "UK" reference ?
>
> Carmel
>
> Paul O'Leary wrote:
> > The relative absence of debate about language shift in nineteenth-century
> > Ireland is curious when viewed from the perspective of discussions in some
> > other countries, especially so when one considers the vigorous state of
> > Irish historical studies. I have in mind, in particular, the multi-volume
> > social history of the Welsh language that was published a few years ago,
> > which involved social historians, sociologists, socio-linguists, and others.
> > This major project took our understanding of the social history of the
> > language to a completely new level by providing an enormous body of data as
> > well detailed studies of particular regions and a wide variety of linguistic
> > domains. In my view, the study of the Irish language in the
> > nineteenth-century would benefit enormously from comparative analysis with
> > the fate of other non-state languages, especially in the UK,
> >
> >
> >
> > .
> >
> >
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick Maume
Subject: Re: the Irish language and the historians
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From: Patrick Maume
A couple of factors which are often put forward to suggest the Irish/Welsh
difference - (1) Wales was a Protestant country; the Welsh bible was in wide
use and Welsh was used in vernacular services, providing a standard literary
language; although there was some Irish-language devotional literature in
print, such as Tadhg Gaelach O Suilleabhain's poems, this was not nearly
as widely-used. (Matters were not helped by the early nineteenth-century
attempt of Protestant evangelists to use Irish as a tool of conversion,
which led to widespread Catholic suspicion of Irish-laguage printed texts.
BTW I have seen examples of conversionists in the early C19 claiming the
people were deeply attached to the language and showed great interest in
Irish written texts. I wonder was this simply wishful thinking about the
prospects for Irish-language evangelism, or were they describing a real
phenomenon - and if the latter, what does that say about the spontaneous
abandonment thesis?
(2) The fact that such large-scale industrialisation took place
in Welsh-speaking areas of Wales in the C19, so that Welsh-speakers did not
have to abandon the language when looking for work, in contrast to
Irish-speakers going to Britain or America (or to Dublin and the Lagan
Valley).
Best wishes,
Patrick

On 8/23/07, Muiris Mag Ualghairg wrote:
>
> I would assume that Paul's reference to the UK is because he was
> talking about the 19th century when Ireland was a part of the UK. I
> would be interested in looking at the position of the various
> non-state languages in the UK at that time. Why did Welsh survive as a
> major community language, the language of villages, of fairs, of towns
> and of normal every day discourse across large parts of the country in
> the 19th century, whereas Irish had already lost so much territory.
> What factor made their situations so different.
>
> Muiris
>
> On 23/08/07, Carmel McCaffrey wrote:
> > Paul,
> >
> > There is a major difference between the language issue in Ireland and
> > that in Wales I believe - or any other country which is not an
> > autonomous state. In Ireland after independence the drive to assert the
> > Irish language as a necessary expression of culture was lessoned I
> > believe because of the establishment of a new Irish state. Growing up
> > in Ireland in the twentieth century there was no doubt that a strong
> > sense of Irishness was being established - and therefore a strong sense
> > of separate identity from England - in many aspects of Irish life,
> > including the educational system. Language was no longer seen by many
> > as the imperative expression of a separate and valid culture as had been
> > deemed by Douglas Hyde as a necessary way of "de-anglicizing" Ireland.
> > The removal of the British presence in the early century had done that.
> >
> > My parents for example had no truck with the Irish language revival
> > movement or anything connected to the Gaelic league types- yet each time
> > we went over to Britain for visits or holidays my father would
> > invariably make the remark on our return journey that "thank God we
> > broke away from this bloody crowd".
> >
> > As regards the reasons why the Irish language shrank so fast in the
> > nineteenth century - there is nothing new is saying that it was likely a
> > combination of factors - English language schools for children [state
> > intervention] and the economic need to learn English. The only thing
> > that changes in the narrative surrounding the issue apparently is which
> > of these gets to be considered the most dominant reason.
> >
> > By the way I presume you are not Ireland Republic of Ireland in your
> > "UK" reference ?
> >
> > Carmel
> >
> > Paul O'Leary wrote:
> > > The relative absence of debate about language shift in
> nineteenth-century
> > > Ireland is curious when viewed from the perspective of discussions in
> some
> > > other countries, especially so when one considers the vigorous state
> of
> > > Irish historical studies. I have in mind, in particular, the
> multi-volume
> > > social history of the Welsh language that was published a few years
> ago,
> > > which involved social historians, sociologists, socio-linguists, and
> others.
> > > This major project took our understanding of the social history of the
> > > language to a completely new level by providing an enormous body of
> data as
> > > well detailed studies of particular regions and a wide variety of
> linguistic
> > > domains. In my view, the study of the Irish language in the
> > > nineteenth-century would benefit enormously from comparative analysis
> with
> > > the fate of other non-state languages, especially in the UK,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: D C Rose
Subject: Re: the Irish language and the historians
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...and, by way of adding a new perspective, as late as 1900 the majority of
the indigenous inhabitants of France had another language as their 'mother'
tongue: Breton, Basque, Flemish, Catalan, Italian, Yiddish, German,
Proven=E7al... I don't know when the balance changed, nor the cause, but I
don't think it was British oppression. - that is to say, my guess is that
adopting the language of the metropolitan centre is a trope of modernity.
Some Irish 'revival' ists were interested in Mistral's attempts to create a
Proven=E7al literature. I am sure work has been done on comparing the two.

David Rose
Paris

On 23/08/07, Carmel McCaffrey wrote:
>
> Paul,
>
> There is a major difference between the language issue in Ireland and
> that in Wales I believe - or any other country which is not an
> autonomous state. In Ireland after independence the drive to assert the
> Irish language as a necessary expression of culture was lessoned I
> believe because of the establishment of a new Irish state. Growing up
> in Ireland in the twentieth century there was no doubt that a strong
> sense of Irishness was being established - and therefore a strong sense
> of separate identity from England - in many aspects of Irish life,
> including the educational system. Language was no longer seen by many
> as the imperative expression of a separate and valid culture as had been
> deemed by Douglas Hyde as a necessary way of "de-anglicizing" Ireland.
> The removal of the British presence in the early century had done that.
>
> My parents for example had no truck with the Irish language revival
> movement or anything connected to the Gaelic league types- yet each time
> we went over to Britain for visits or holidays my father would
> invariably make the remark on our return journey that "thank God we
> broke away from this bloody crowd".
>
> As regards the reasons why the Irish language shrank so fast in the
> nineteenth century - there is nothing new is saying that it was likely a
> combination of factors - English language schools for children [state
> intervention] and the economic need to learn English. The only thing
> that changes in the narrative surrounding the issue apparently is which
> of these gets to be considered the most dominant reason.
>
> By the way I presume you are not Ireland Republic of Ireland in your
> "UK" reference ?
>
> Carmel
>
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "Rogers, James"
Subject: Re: the Irish language and the historians
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Michael Hayes's mention of the tally stick system put me in mind of John
Montague's wonderful poem about that sort of punishment, "A Grafted Tongu=
e"
-- which a google search quickly found posted here (probably in blissful
defiance of copyright law): =20

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/IrelandGenWeb/2006-04/1146420599

JSR

-----Original Message-----
From: micheal.ohaodha [mailto:micheal.ohaodha[at]UL.IE]=20
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 10:48 AM
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] the Irish language and the historians

A few points in relation to this very interesting thread:

To say that religious practice has "collapsed" in Ireland is an
exaggeration. Ireland still has one of the highest (probably (almost
certainly?) the highest) Church attendance rates in Europe (for both
Catholics and Protestants) - somebody of the Islamic faith might be able =
to
give us an idea of their levels of practice - the mosque certainly looks
packed in my home town of Galway any weekend I am back there - not enough
room for everybody and so the crowd spills out onto the street) and this
decline in the modern era was inevitable to certain extent given that it =
is
a decline from attendance levels that were so high that they must have be=
en
unprecedented in any country. There are also big disparities between a la=
rge
urban area such as Dublin and the rest of the country.

The speed of language change can be verified to a certain point by referr=
ing
to personal testimony also - When they became elderly my grandparents - b=
orn
(around early 1900s in East Galway) - lived with us (my parents and anoth=
er
grand-aunt)in an extended family household including 11 children (i.e. my
brothers and sisters)and a grand-aunt. Both of my grandparents came from
families who were involved in trade and would have needed both languages
(Irish and English)=20

My grandmother who lived to a very good age told me that there were plent=
y
of people in their area (especially bachelor farmers and tradesmen) who w=
ere
monoglot Irish-speakers and these people filled in the census (or had
someone fill it in for them) - which I think was issued prior to 1916 i.e.
issued by the British and in English - not sure of the year) - to indicat=
e
as much.=20
Everybody else, including children, said that they could speak both Irish
and English - read up on some some birth certs and census forms from this
era a few years ago.=20
Despite growing up in an environment where both languages were spoken qui=
te
widely - my grandparents (in their old age) did not understand one word o=
f
the Nuacht - (Irish-speaking news) when it was shown on television. There
was also a tally-stick system in operation involving punishment for speak=
ing
Irish (punishment at school and then at home for being hit at school) - e=
ven
though the teacher (ironically) was often themselves a native Irish speak=
er
as were many of their pupils - often the majority.
In school, in the Church and in all officialdom - Irish was "looked down
upon" and seen as useless - and this attitude continued on for many decad=
es
after the early 1900s.

The language of instruction in every subject - (even Catechism) was throu=
gh
English - this was also the case in the Gaeltacht areas. Probably the
majority of children from this era emigrated (to America especially -and =
so
Irish was "no good" to them either. To be honest, it always amazes me,tha=
t
Irish has survived so long - given these conditions.

My grandmother also told me of a poem that they had to recite each day at
school (neither she nor my grandfather went any further than a few years =
of
National School) which went something like this - (maybe somebody can fil=
l
it in for me if I have it wrong:

"I thank the goodness and the grace, which on my birth has smiled
And made me in these (**Christian?**) days a happy English child."


Beannachtai

Michael Hayes
Department of History
University of Limerick=20
Limerick=20
Ireland


=20

-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Beh=
alf
Of Muiris Mag Ualghairg
Sent: 23 August 2007 13:05
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] the Irish language and the historians

I'm not sure who has done the research in Wales, probably Colin
Williams, but I know that statistician who does all the work on the
Welsh language on behalf of the Welsh Language Board, so I'll ask him
if he knows who has done the research.

Interestingly, it appears that the Irish community in parts of Wales,
Merthyr for example, kept their Irish after moving into Wales, for a
generation or so and also learnt Welsh. I think that Peredur Lynch may
have more on this in one of his publications.

Muiris

On 23/08/07, Patrick Maume wrote:
> From: Patrick Maume
> It might be worth referring back to Sean de Freine's THE GREAT SILENC=
E,
> which revolves around the central point that the language collapsed wit=
h
> amazing speed in the nineteenth century and the very limited amount of
> attention which has been paid to this.
> I think the dominant view now tends to play down state compulsion and=
to
> emphasise the extent to which the change was driven by parents themselv=
es
> seeing Irish as useless (though it could be argued that this needs to p=
ush
> responsibility back a stage further, to discuss how these conditions ca=
me
> into existence). It would also be pointed out that the collapse was th=
e
> end-result of a longer process in which Irish got driven out of elite
> culture and of many spheres of life, and where it failed to make the
> transition to print on any significant scale until the Gaelic Revival a=
t
the
> end of the nineteenth century. (The implicit comparison would be with
> Welsh, which made the print transition earlier and had significant numb=
ers
> of local Welsh-language newspapers in the Victorian period.)
> One parallel which might be worth considering would be with the decline=
of
> Catholicism in Ireland in recent decades; here again we have an idiom
which
> was almost universal within the ROI until very recently (NB the extent =
to
> which even in the 60s and 70s the state is described by people
> unselfconsciously as a "Catholic country", devotional language is used
> spontaneously, &C) and which has been driven back with great rapidity i=
nto
> the private sphere and even there has thinned out quite considerably. =
So
> much so that Malachi O'Doherty had an articel in a recent issue of MAGI=
LL
> suggesting that Ireland can never "really" have been Catholic because i=
t
> collapsed so quickly, which seems to me like saying on the same basis t=
hat
> Ireland had never "really" been Irish-speaking. (BTW I am not making a=
ny
> comment here about whether the secularisation process is a good thing o=
r
not
> - I'm simply saying that there is a parallel that might be worth
> considering. Declan Kiberd has made a similar comparison in suggesting
that
> the abandonment of Irish and of catholicism as soon as these were
perceived
> as inconvenient shows that the Irish have never been a conservative peo=
ple
-
> but Iwould not look to Declan Kiberd for detailed analysis.)
> The sudden collapse in Mass attendance in the 1990s after a period wh=
en
> Church-state controversy and increasing disregard for clerical authorit=
y
> coexisted with continued religious observance, reminded me of some
research
> I heard about language change in parts of Wales. This discovered that
until
> the number of English-speaking monoglots on a previously Welsh-speaking
area
> reached a tipping-point (about 25%) the amount of Welsh used in public
> conversations remained high, much higher than the proportion of the
> population able to speak Welsh - about 90%. Once the tipping point (at
> which any group of 3-4 people could assume that one of them would not
> understand Welsh) was reached the level of usage fell - not to 75% but =
far
> below it. This sounds familiar, though I am not sure how this was
> measured. Does anyone have the reference?
> Best wishes,
> PAtrick
>
>
> On 8/23/07, Dymphna Lonergan wrote:
> >
> > My own interest is in to what extent the language survived in an
> > English-speaking setting, especially in the New Worlds. The dominant
> > narrative has been that the language did not survive once there was a
> > /need/ to speak English. Another narrative has been that the language
> > was voluntarily surrendered once there was an /opportunity/ to speak
> > English. My own narrative is that the language /survived/ as long as
> > there was an /opportunity/ to speak it. Enjoy!
> >
> > Rogers, James wrote:
> > > I wonder if the list could chime in on this query, from someone wh=
om
I
> > > assume must be writing about Friel's Translations, and which I fe=
el
a
> > bit
> > > overmatched to answer:
> > >
> > > "What (if any) are the present-day debates circling around the decl=
ine
> > of
> > > the Irish language in the 19th century? Is there a dominant narrati=
ve
to
> > > which historians and others subscribe, eg, that it was voluntarily
> > > surrendered, or that it was systematically suppressed? And has
thinking
> > on
> > > this changed in recent decades? I'm not looking for debates about t=
he
> > > significance or value of the language itself, or about how or wheth=
er
it
> > > should be supported-I mean debates about how we understand the fact
that
> > it
> > > went into rapid decline in a short span of time."
> > >
> > > I find the part of this question about how the conversation has
shifted
> > in
> > > recent years especially interesting.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance for the collective wisdom of the list, which is
> > > all-knowing and never fails.
> > >
> > > Jim Rogers
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Le gach dea ghu=ED
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dr Dymphna Lonergan
> >
> > Director Professional Studies Minor
> >
> > Convener Professional English (ENGL1001/A; ENGL1012; ENGL1013/A;
> > Professional Writing PROF2101; PROF8000; Story of Australian English
> > ENGL7214
> >
> >
> >
> > Research interests: Irish settlement in South Australia; Irish langua=
ge
> > in Australia; Placenames Australia (Irish project)
> >
> > Publication: /Sounds Irish: The Irish language in Australia
> > /http://www.lythrumpress.com.au
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Carmel McCaffrey
Subject: Re: the Irish language and the historians
In-Reply-To:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Micheal,
You have the quote exactly right. It is familiar to me from a number of=20
sources but is especially quoted by Breand=E1n =D3 Conaire in his intro t=
o=20
Douglas Hyde. I too remember those of my grandparents generation quoting=20
it in derision and seeing it as a propaganda tool. I remember seeing a=20
claim somewhere - but I can't right now remember where - that in the=20
nineteenth century it was pasted up on the walls of all Irish national=20
schools.

Carmel

micheal.ohaodha wrote:
> A few points in relation to this very interesting thread:
>
> To say that religious practice has "collapsed" in Ireland is an exagger=
ation. Ireland still has one of the highest (probably (almost certainly?)=
the highest) Church attendance rates in Europe (for both Catholics and P=
rotestants) - somebody of the Islamic faith might be able to give us an i=
dea of their levels of practice - the mosque certainly looks packed in my=
home town of Galway any weekend I am back there - not enough room for ev=
erybody and so the crowd spills out onto the street) and this decline in =
the modern era was inevitable to certain extent given that it is a declin=
e from attendance levels that were so high that they must have been unpre=
cedented in any country. There are also big disparities between a large u=
rban area such as Dublin and the rest of the country.
>
> The speed of language change can be verified to a certain point by refe=
rring to personal testimony also - When they became elderly my grandparen=
ts - born (around early 1900s in East Galway) - lived with us (my parents=
and another grand-aunt)in an extended family household including 11 chil=
dren (i.e. my brothers and sisters)and a grand-aunt. Both of my grandpare=
nts came from families who were involved in trade and would have needed b=
oth languages (Irish and English)=20
>
> My grandmother who lived to a very good age told me that there were ple=
nty of people in their area (especially bachelor farmers and tradesmen) w=
ho were monoglot Irish-speakers and these people filled in the census (or=
had someone fill it in for them) - which I think was issued prior to 191=
6 i.e. issued by the British and in English - not sure of the year) - to =
indicate as much.=20
> Everybody else, including children, said that they could speak both Iri=
sh and English - read up on some some birth certs and census forms from t=
his era a few years ago.=20
> Despite growing up in an environment where both languages were spoken q=
uite widely - my grandparents (in their old age) did not understand one w=
ord of the Nuacht - (Irish-speaking news) when it was shown on television=
. There was also a tally-stick system in operation involving punishment f=
or speaking Irish (punishment at school and then at home for being hit at=
school) - even though the teacher (ironically) was often themselves a na=
tive Irish speaker as were many of their pupils - often the majority.
> In school, in the Church and in all officialdom - Irish was "looked dow=
n upon" and seen as useless - and this attitude continued on for many dec=
ades after the early 1900s.
>
> The language of instruction in every subject - (even Catechism) was thr=
ough English - this was also the case in the Gaeltacht areas. Probably th=
e majority of children from this era emigrated (to America especially -an=
d so Irish was "no good" to them either. To be honest, it always amazes m=
e,that Irish has survived so long - given these conditions.
>
> My grandmother also told me of a poem that they had to recite each day =
at school (neither she nor my grandfather went any further than a few yea=
rs of National School) which went something like this - (maybe somebody c=
an fill it in for me if I have it wrong:
>
> "I thank the goodness and the grace, which on my birth has smiled
> And made me in these (**Christian?**) days a happy English child."
>
>
> Beannachtai
>
> Michael Hayes
> Department of History
> University of Limerick=20
> Limerick=20
> Ireland
>
>
> =20
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On B=
ehalf Of Muiris Mag Ualghairg
> Sent: 23 August 2007 13:05
> To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
> Subject: Re: [IR-D] the Irish language and the historians
>
> I'm not sure who has done the research in Wales, probably Colin
> Williams, but I know that statistician who does all the work on the
> Welsh language on behalf of the Welsh Language Board, so I'll ask him
> if he knows who has done the research.
>
> Interestingly, it appears that the Irish community in parts of Wales,
> Merthyr for example, kept their Irish after moving into Wales, for a
> generation or so and also learnt Welsh. I think that Peredur Lynch may
> have more on this in one of his publications.
>
> Muiris
>
> On 23/08/07, Patrick Maume wrote:
> =20
>> From: Patrick Maume
>> It might be worth referring back to Sean de Freine's THE GREAT SILEN=
CE,
>> which revolves around the central point that the language collapsed wi=
th
>> amazing speed in the nineteenth century and the very limited amount of
>> attention which has been paid to this.
>> I think the dominant view now tends to play down state compulsion an=
d to
>> emphasise the extent to which the change was driven by parents themsel=
ves
>> seeing Irish as useless (though it could be argued that this needs to =
push
>> responsibility back a stage further, to discuss how these conditions c=
ame
>> into existence). It would also be pointed out that the collapse was t=
he
>> end-result of a longer process in which Irish got driven out of elite
>> culture and of many spheres of life, and where it failed to make the
>> transition to print on any significant scale until the Gaelic Revival =
at the
>> end of the nineteenth century. (The implicit comparison would be with
>> Welsh, which made the print transition earlier and had significant num=
bers
>> of local Welsh-language newspapers in the Victorian period.)
>> One parallel which might be worth considering would be with the declin=
e of
>> Catholicism in Ireland in recent decades; here again we have an idiom =
which
>> was almost universal within the ROI until very recently (NB the extent=
to
>> which even in the 60s and 70s the state is described by people
>> unselfconsciously as a "Catholic country", devotional language is used
>> spontaneously, &C) and which has been driven back with great rapidity =
into
>> the private sphere and even there has thinned out quite considerably. =
So
>> much so that Malachi O'Doherty had an articel in a recent issue of MAG=
ILL
>> suggesting that Ireland can never "really" have been Catholic because =
it
>> collapsed so quickly, which seems to me like saying on the same basis =
that
>> Ireland had never "really" been Irish-speaking. (BTW I am not making =
any
>> comment here about whether the secularisation process is a good thing =
or not
>> - I'm simply saying that there is a parallel that might be worth
>> considering. Declan Kiberd has made a similar comparison in suggestin=
g that
>> the abandonment of Irish and of catholicism as soon as these were perc=
eived
>> as inconvenient shows that the Irish have never been a conservative pe=
ople -
>> but Iwould not look to Declan Kiberd for detailed analysis.)
>> The sudden collapse in Mass attendance in the 1990s after a period w=
hen
>> Church-state controversy and increasing disregard for clerical authori=
ty
>> coexisted with continued religious observance, reminded me of some res=
earch
>> I heard about language change in parts of Wales. This discovered that=
until
>> the number of English-speaking monoglots on a previously Welsh-speakin=
g area
>> reached a tipping-point (about 25%) the amount of Welsh used in public
>> conversations remained high, much higher than the proportion of the
>> population able to speak Welsh - about 90%. Once the tipping point (a=
t
>> which any group of 3-4 people could assume that one of them would not
>> understand Welsh) was reached the level of usage fell - not to 75% but=
far
>> below it. This sounds familiar, though I am not sure how this was
>> measured. Does anyone have the reference?
>> Best wishes,
>> PAtrick
>>
>>
>> On 8/23/07, Dymphna Lonergan wrote:
>> =20
>>> My own interest is in to what extent the language survived in an
>>> English-speaking setting, especially in the New Worlds. The dominant
>>> narrative has been that the language did not survive once there was a
>>> /need/ to speak English. Another narrative has been that the language
>>> was voluntarily surrendered once there was an /opportunity/ to speak
>>> English. My own narrative is that the language /survived/ as long as
>>> there was an /opportunity/ to speak it. Enjoy!
>>>
>>> Rogers, James wrote:
>>> =20
>>>> I wonder if the list could chime in on this query, from someone who=
m I
>>>> assume must be writing about Friel's Translations, and which I fee=
l a
>>>> =20
>>> bit
>>> =20
>>>> overmatched to answer:
>>>>
>>>> "What (if any) are the present-day debates circling around the decli=
ne
>>>> =20
>>> of
>>> =20
>>>> the Irish language in the 19th century? Is there a dominant narrativ=
e to
>>>> which historians and others subscribe, eg, that it was voluntarily
>>>> surrendered, or that it was systematically suppressed? And has thin=
king
>>>> =20
>>> on
>>> =20
>>>> this changed in recent decades? I'm not looking for debates about th=
e
>>>> significance or value of the language itself, or about how or whethe=
r it
>>>> should be supported-I mean debates about how we understand the fact =
that
>>>> =20
>>> it
>>> =20
>>>> went into rapid decline in a short span of time."
>>>>
>>>> I find the part of this question about how the conversation has shif=
ted
>>>> =20
>>> in
>>> =20
>>>> recent years especially interesting.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance for the collective wisdom of the list, which is
>>>> all-knowing and never fails.
>>>>
>>>> Jim Rogers
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =20
>>> --
>>>
>>> Le gach dea ghu=ED
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr Dymphna Lonergan
>>>
>>> Director Professional Studies Minor
>>>
>>> Convener Professional English (ENGL1001/A; ENGL1012; ENGL1013/A;
>>> Professional Writing PROF2101; PROF8000; Story of Australian English
>>> ENGL7214
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Research interests: Irish settlement in South Australia; Irish langua=
ge
>>> in Australia; Placenames Australia (Irish project)
>>>
>>> Publication: /Sounds Irish: The Irish language in Australia
>>> /http://www.lythrumpress.com.au
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> =20
>
> .
>
> =20

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "micheal.ohaodha"
Subject: Re: the Irish language and the historians
In-Reply-To: A
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A few points in relation to this very interesting thread:

To say that religious practice has "collapsed" in Ireland is an =
exaggeration. Ireland still has one of the highest (probably (almost =
certainly?) the highest) Church attendance rates in Europe (for both =
Catholics and Protestants) - somebody of the Islamic faith might be able =
to give us an idea of their levels of practice - the mosque certainly =
looks packed in my home town of Galway any weekend I am back there - not =
enough room for everybody and so the crowd spills out onto the street) =
and this decline in the modern era was inevitable to certain extent =
given that it is a decline from attendance levels that were so high that =
they must have been unprecedented in any country. There are also big =
disparities between a large urban area such as Dublin and the rest of =
the country.

The speed of language change can be verified to a certain point by =
referring to personal testimony also - When they became elderly my =
grandparents - born (around early 1900s in East Galway) - lived with us =
(my parents and another grand-aunt)in an extended family household =
including 11 children (i.e. my brothers and sisters)and a grand-aunt. =
Both of my grandparents came from families who were involved in trade =
and would have needed both languages (Irish and English)=20

My grandmother who lived to a very good age told me that there were =
plenty of people in their area (especially bachelor farmers and =
tradesmen) who were monoglot Irish-speakers and these people filled in =
the census (or had someone fill it in for them) - which I think was =
issued prior to 1916 i.e. issued by the British and in English - not =
sure of the year) - to indicate as much.=20
Everybody else, including children, said that they could speak both =
Irish and English - read up on some some birth certs and census forms =
from this era a few years ago.=20
Despite growing up in an environment where both languages were spoken =
quite widely - my grandparents (in their old age) did not understand one =
word of the Nuacht - (Irish-speaking news) when it was shown on =
television. There was also a tally-stick system in operation involving =
punishment for speaking Irish (punishment at school and then at home for =
being hit at school) - even though the teacher (ironically) was often =
themselves a native Irish speaker as were many of their pupils - often =
the majority.
In school, in the Church and in all officialdom - Irish was "looked down =
upon" and seen as useless - and this attitude continued on for many =
decades after the early 1900s.

The language of instruction in every subject - (even Catechism) was =
through English - this was also the case in the Gaeltacht areas. =
Probably the majority of children from this era emigrated (to America =
especially -and so Irish was "no good" to them either. To be honest, it =
always amazes me,that Irish has survived so long - given these =
conditions.

My grandmother also told me of a poem that they had to recite each day =
at school (neither she nor my grandfather went any further than a few =
years of National School) which went something like this - (maybe =
somebody can fill it in for me if I have it wrong:

"I thank the goodness and the grace, which on my birth has smiled
And made me in these (**Christian?**) days a happy English child."


Beannachtai

Michael Hayes
Department of History
University of Limerick=20
Limerick=20
Ireland


=20

-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On =
Behalf Of Muiris Mag Ualghairg
Sent: 23 August 2007 13:05
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] the Irish language and the historians

I'm not sure who has done the research in Wales, probably Colin
Williams, but I know that statistician who does all the work on the
Welsh language on behalf of the Welsh Language Board, so I'll ask him
if he knows who has done the research.

Interestingly, it appears that the Irish community in parts of Wales,
Merthyr for example, kept their Irish after moving into Wales, for a
generation or so and also learnt Welsh. I think that Peredur Lynch may
have more on this in one of his publications.

Muiris

On 23/08/07, Patrick Maume wrote:
> From: Patrick Maume
> It might be worth referring back to Sean de Freine's THE GREAT =
SILENCE,
> which revolves around the central point that the language collapsed =
with
> amazing speed in the nineteenth century and the very limited amount of
> attention which has been paid to this.
> I think the dominant view now tends to play down state compulsion =
and to
> emphasise the extent to which the change was driven by parents =
themselves
> seeing Irish as useless (though it could be argued that this needs to =
push
> responsibility back a stage further, to discuss how these conditions =
came
> into existence). It would also be pointed out that the collapse was =
the
> end-result of a longer process in which Irish got driven out of elite
> culture and of many spheres of life, and where it failed to make the
> transition to print on any significant scale until the Gaelic Revival =
at the
> end of the nineteenth century. (The implicit comparison would be with
> Welsh, which made the print transition earlier and had significant =
numbers
> of local Welsh-language newspapers in the Victorian period.)
> One parallel which might be worth considering would be with the =
decline of
> Catholicism in Ireland in recent decades; here again we have an idiom =
which
> was almost universal within the ROI until very recently (NB the extent =
to
> which even in the 60s and 70s the state is described by people
> unselfconsciously as a "Catholic country", devotional language is used
> spontaneously, &C) and which has been driven back with great rapidity =
into
> the private sphere and even there has thinned out quite considerably. =
So
> much so that Malachi O'Doherty had an articel in a recent issue of =
MAGILL
> suggesting that Ireland can never "really" have been Catholic because =
it
> collapsed so quickly, which seems to me like saying on the same basis =
that
> Ireland had never "really" been Irish-speaking. (BTW I am not making =
any
> comment here about whether the secularisation process is a good thing =
or not
> - I'm simply saying that there is a parallel that might be worth
> considering. Declan Kiberd has made a similar comparison in =
suggesting that
> the abandonment of Irish and of catholicism as soon as these were =
perceived
> as inconvenient shows that the Irish have never been a conservative =
people -
> but Iwould not look to Declan Kiberd for detailed analysis.)
> The sudden collapse in Mass attendance in the 1990s after a period =
when
> Church-state controversy and increasing disregard for clerical =
authority
> coexisted with continued religious observance, reminded me of some =
research
> I heard about language change in parts of Wales. This discovered that =
until
> the number of English-speaking monoglots on a previously =
Welsh-speaking area
> reached a tipping-point (about 25%) the amount of Welsh used in public
> conversations remained high, much higher than the proportion of the
> population able to speak Welsh - about 90%. Once the tipping point =
(at
> which any group of 3-4 people could assume that one of them would not
> understand Welsh) was reached the level of usage fell - not to 75% but =
far
> below it. This sounds familiar, though I am not sure how this was
> measured. Does anyone have the reference?
> Best wishes,
> PAtrick
>
>
> On 8/23/07, Dymphna Lonergan wrote:
> >
> > My own interest is in to what extent the language survived in an
> > English-speaking setting, especially in the New Worlds. The dominant
> > narrative has been that the language did not survive once there was =
a
> > /need/ to speak English. Another narrative has been that the =
language
> > was voluntarily surrendered once there was an /opportunity/ to speak
> > English. My own narrative is that the language /survived/ as long as
> > there was an /opportunity/ to speak it. Enjoy!
> >
> > Rogers, James wrote:
> > > I wonder if the list could chime in on this query, from someone =
whom I
> > > assume must be writing about Friel's Translations, and which I =
feel a
> > bit
> > > overmatched to answer:
> > >
> > > "What (if any) are the present-day debates circling around the =
decline
> > of
> > > the Irish language in the 19th century? Is there a dominant =
narrative to
> > > which historians and others subscribe, eg, that it was voluntarily
> > > surrendered, or that it was systematically suppressed? And has =
thinking
> > on
> > > this changed in recent decades? I'm not looking for debates about =
the
> > > significance or value of the language itself, or about how or =
whether it
> > > should be supported-I mean debates about how we understand the =
fact that
> > it
> > > went into rapid decline in a short span of time."
> > >
> > > I find the part of this question about how the conversation has =
shifted
> > in
> > > recent years especially interesting.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance for the collective wisdom of the list, which is
> > > all-knowing and never fails.
> > >
> > > Jim Rogers
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Le gach dea ghu=ED
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dr Dymphna Lonergan
> >
> > Director Professional Studies Minor
> >
> > Convener Professional English (ENGL1001/A; ENGL1012; ENGL1013/A;
> > Professional Writing PROF2101; PROF8000; Story of Australian English
> > ENGL7214
> >
> >
> >
> > Research interests: Irish settlement in South Australia; Irish =
language
> > in Australia; Placenames Australia (Irish project)
> >
> > Publication: /Sounds Irish: The Irish language in Australia
> > /http://www.lythrumpress.com.au
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "Rogers, James"
Subject: Re: the Irish language and the historians
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

As it happens, I was just this morning looking at a review copy of Mich=
ael
Coleman's new "American Indians, The Irish, and Government Schooling
(University of Nebraska Press 2007). Checking "tally-stick" in the index,=
I
find that he reports that the Irish Folklore Commission collected more th=
an
seventy reports of tally sticks (and dunce caps) but that almost none of
them were first-person reports. (p. 98)

He cites Victor Durkacz, "The Decline of the Celtic Languages " (1983) as=
a
source that minimizes the lore of the tally-stick, and Tony Crowley's "W=
ar
of Words: The Politics of Language in Ireland 1537-2004" (2005) as a sour=
ce
that argues that it was real and important.

There is no doubt at all that many parents sternly discouraged their
children from speaking the native language, of course

Jim R

-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Maume [mailto:pmaume[at]GOOGLEMAIL.COM]=20
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 9:11 AM
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] the Irish language and the historians

From: Patrick Maume
The verse "I thank the goodness and the grace/That on my youth has smiled=
/
And made me in these christian days/A happy English child" appeared in
National School readers for much of the C19. It is traditionally attribu=
ted
to Archbishop Richard Whately (Dublin, Church of Ireland) though I am not
sure if it was actually by him.
The tallystick system is cited in much debate about how far the decline=
of
the language was voluntary; those who stress state compulsion emphasise t=
he
role of the school, those who argue that it was due to wider communal
attitudes point out that it required the parents to co-operate in enforci=
ng
it. (Some versions of the system report it as taking place only in the
school, others have the parents marking the stick when they hear the chil=
d
use Irish at home & sending the child to school with the stick to be
punished by the teacher. I don't know if anyone has studied the subject =
in
depth, especially as there are not likely to be many contemporaneous writ=
ten
records of how it operated.) Similar tallystick systems were I bleive fo=
und
in schools in wales and highland Scotland.
When I referrred to a "collapse" of religious practice in Ireland I did
not mean that nobody goes to church any more. (I should add that I was
referring fairly specifically to one specific religious culture, the
Catholic one, just as the original discussion relates to one specific
language, Irish - the Moslems are not really relevant in this context, an=
y
more than the black Evangelical families whom I see heading for church wh=
en
I walk through Dublin on Sunday mornings - or the presence of German or
Italian-speakers in C19 Ireland wa to the change from Irish to English) W=
hat
I meant was that there has been a drop in regular Mass attendance among
nominal Catholics from around 90-95% in 1990 to around 50-60% now. If a
political party lost a third of its voters, or a corporation a third of
its customers, in 15 years that could reasonably be described as a
collapse. Furthermore there has been a wider shift in public discourse o=
ver
the last 30 years or so from one in which it was assumed that most people=
in
Ireland were believeing Catholics (even on a pretty conformist level in
which atheists and agnostics were expected to keep their views to
themselves) and that this should to some extent be reflected in the publi=
c
sphere, to one in which it is tacitly asumed at least in metropolitan and
media circles that it is the religious believers who should/do regard the=
ir
beliefs as a private matter which is embarassing to be raised in public.
The number of journalists/public commentators who not only say they are
atheists but who openly declare that they regard religious belief as
self-evidently preposterous is an interesting index of this [the differen=
ce
between the rejection of Catholicism by a Joyce or Brian Moore, who regar=
ded
it as a serious intellectual/cultural phenomenon even if they did not sha=
re
it, and the mindset of a Joseph O'Connor or Gerald Stembridge] as is the
contrast between the SUNDAY INDEPENDENT C.1957 (very outspokenly devotion=
al
Catholic, agony column run by a priest) or 1967 (very earnestly liberal
Catholic, holding forth on Vatican II) with what it is today.
I might add that pre-Vatican II Ireland was not as sui generis as
suggested here; 1940s and 1950s Quebec had a very high level of religious
observance which went from 90 to 20% in something like thirty years, and =
I
suspect a lot of the old immigrant ghetto areas in Britain and North Amer=
ica
have seen similar trends.
I am not saying in this context whether this change is good or bad, but=
It
has undeniably taken place
Best wishes,
PAtrick

On 8/24/07, Rogers, James wrote:
>
> Michael Hayes's mention of the tally stick system put me in mind of Joh=
n
> Montague's wonderful poem about that sort of punishment, "A Grafted
> Tongue"
> -- which a google search quickly found posted here (probably in blissfu=
l
> defiance of copyright law):
>
> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/IrelandGenWeb/2006-04/1146420599
>
> JSR
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: micheal.ohaodha [mailto:micheal.ohaodha[at]UL.IE]
> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 10:48 AM
> To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
> Subject: Re: [IR-D] the Irish language and the historians
>
> A few points in relation to this very interesting thread:
>
> To say that religious practice has "collapsed" in Ireland is an
> exaggeration. Ireland still has one of the highest (probably (almost
> certainly?) the highest) Church attendance rates in Europe (for both
> Catholics and Protestants) - somebody of the Islamic faith might be abl=
e
> to
> give us an idea of their levels of practice - the mosque certainly look=
s
> packed in my home town of Galway any weekend I am back there - not enou=
gh
> room for everybody and so the crowd spills out onto the street) and thi=
s
> decline in the modern era was inevitable to certain extent given that i=
t
> is
> a decline from attendance levels that were so high that they must have
> been
> unprecedented in any country. There are also big disparities between a
> large
> urban area such as Dublin and the rest of the country.
>
> The speed of language change can be verified to a certain point by
> referring
> to personal testimony also - When they became elderly my grandparents -
> born
> (around early 1900s in East Galway) - lived with us (my parents and
> another
> grand-aunt)in an extended family household including 11 children (i.e. =
my
> brothers and sisters)and a grand-aunt. Both of my grandparents came fro=
m
> families who were involved in trade and would have needed both language=
s
> (Irish and English)
>
> My grandmother who lived to a very good age told me that there were ple=
nty
> of people in their area (especially bachelor farmers and tradesmen) who
> were
> monoglot Irish-speakers and these people filled in the census (or had
> someone fill it in for them) - which I think was issued prior to 1916 i=
.e.
> issued by the British and in English - not sure of the year) - to indic=
ate
> as much.
> Everybody else, including children, said that they could speak both Iri=
sh
> and English - read up on some some birth certs and census forms from th=
is
> era a few years ago.
> Despite growing up in an environment where both languages were spoken
> quite
> widely - my grandparents (in their old age) did not understand one word=
of
> the Nuacht - (Irish-speaking news) when it was shown on television. The=
re
> was also a tally-stick system in operation involving punishment for
> speaking
> Irish (punishment at school and then at home for being hit at school) -
> even
> though the teacher (ironically) was often themselves a native Irish
> speaker
> as were many of their pupils - often the majority.
> In school, in the Church and in all officialdom - Irish was "looked dow=
n
> upon" and seen as useless - and this attitude continued on for many
> decades
> after the early 1900s.
>
> The language of instruction in every subject - (even Catechism) was
> through
> English - this was also the case in the Gaeltacht areas. Probably the
> majority of children from this era emigrated (to America especially -an=
d
> so
> Irish was "no good" to them either. To be honest, it always amazes me,t=
hat
> Irish has survived so long - given these conditions.
>
> My grandmother also told me of a poem that they had to recite each day =
at
> school (neither she nor my grandfather went any further than a few year=
s
> of
> National School) which went something like this - (maybe somebody can f=
ill
> it in for me if I have it wrong:
>
> "I thank the goodness and the grace, which on my birth has smiled
> And made me in these (**Christian?**) days a happy English child."
>
>
> Beannachtai
>
> Michael Hayes
> Department of History
> University of Limerick
> Limerick
> Ireland
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On
> Behalf
> Of Muiris Mag Ualghairg
> Sent: 23 August 2007 13:05
> To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
> Subject: Re: [IR-D] the Irish language and the historians
>
> I'm not sure who has done the research in Wales, probably Colin
> Williams, but I know that statistician who does all the work on the
> Welsh language on behalf of the Welsh Language Board, so I'll ask him
> if he knows who has done the research.
>
> Interestingly, it appears that the Irish community in parts of Wales,
> Merthyr for example, kept their Irish after moving into Wales, for a
> generation or so and also learnt Welsh. I think that Peredur Lynch may
> have more on this in one of his publications.
>
> Muiris
>
> On 23/08/07, Patrick Maume wrote:
> > From: Patrick Maume
> > It might be worth referring back to Sean de Freine's THE GREAT
> SILENCE,
> > which revolves around the central point that the language collapsed w=
ith
> > amazing speed in the nineteenth century and the very limited amount o=
f
> > attention which has been paid to this.
> > I think the dominant view now tends to play down state compulsion a=
nd
> to
> > emphasise the extent to which the change was driven by parents
> themselves
> > seeing Irish as useless (though it could be argued that this needs to
> push
> > responsibility back a stage further, to discuss how these conditions
> came
> > into existence). It would also be pointed out that the collapse was =
the
> > end-result of a longer process in which Irish got driven out of elite
> > culture and of many spheres of life, and where it failed to make the
> > transition to print on any significant scale until the Gaelic Revival=
at
> the
> > end of the nineteenth century. (The implicit comparison would be wit=
h
> > Welsh, which made the print transition earlier and had significant
> numbers
> > of local Welsh-language newspapers in the Victorian period.)
> > One parallel which might be worth considering would be with the decli=
ne
> of
> > Catholicism in Ireland in recent decades; here again we have an idiom
> which
> > was almost universal within the ROI until very recently (NB the exten=
t
> to
> > which even in the 60s and 70s the state is described by people
> > unselfconsciously as a "Catholic country", devotional language is use=
d
> > spontaneously, &C) and which has been driven back with great rapidity
> into
> > the private sphere and even there has thinned out quite
> considerably. So
> > much so that Malachi O'Doherty had an articel in a recent issue of
> MAGILL
> > suggesting that Ireland can never "really" have been Catholic because=
it
> > collapsed so quickly, which seems to me like saying on the same basis
> that
> > Ireland had never "really" been Irish-speaking. (BTW I am not making
> any
> > comment here about whether the secularisation process is a good thing=
or
> not
> > - I'm simply saying that there is a parallel that might be worth
> > considering. Declan Kiberd has made a similar comparison in suggesti=
ng
> that
> > the abandonment of Irish and of catholicism as soon as these were
> perceived
> > as inconvenient shows that the Irish have never been a conservative
> people
> -
> > but Iwould not look to Declan Kiberd for detailed analysis.)
> > The sudden collapse in Mass attendance in the 1990s after a period
> when
> > Church-state controversy and increasing disregard for clerical author=
ity
> > coexisted with continued religious observance, reminded me of some
> research
> > I heard about language change in parts of Wales. This discovered tha=
t
> until
> > the number of English-speaking monoglots on a previously Welsh-speaki=
ng
> area
> > reached a tipping-point (about 25%) the amount of Welsh used in publi=
c
> > conversations remained high, much higher than the proportion of the
> > population able to speak Welsh - about 90%. Once the tipping point (=
at
> > which any group of 3-4 people could assume that one of them would not
> > understand Welsh) was reached the level of usage fell - not to 75% bu=
t
> far
> > below it. This sounds familiar, though I am not sure how this was
> > measured. Does anyone have the reference?
> > Best wishes,
> > PAtrick
> >
> >
> > On 8/23/07, Dymphna Lonergan wrote=
:
> > >
> > > My own interest is in to what extent the language survived in an
> > > English-speaking setting, especially in the New Worlds. The dominan=
t
> > > narrative has been that the language did not survive once there was=
a
> > > /need/ to speak English. Another narrative has been that the langua=
ge
> > > was voluntarily surrendered once there was an /opportunity/ to spea=
k
> > > English. My own narrative is that the language /survived/ as long a=
s
> > > there was an /opportunity/ to speak it. Enjoy!
> > >
> > > Rogers, James wrote:
> > > > I wonder if the list could chime in on this query, from someone
> whom
> I
> > > > assume must be writing about Friel's Translations, and which I
> feel
> a
> > > bit
> > > > overmatched to answer:
> > > >
> > > > "What (if any) are the present-day debates circling around the
> decline
> > > of
> > > > the Irish language in the 19th century? Is there a dominant
> narrative
> to
> > > > which historians and others subscribe, eg, that it was voluntaril=
y
> > > > surrendered, or that it was systematically suppressed? And has
> thinking
> > > on
> > > > this changed in recent decades? I'm not looking for debates about
> the
> > > > significance or value of the language itself, or about how or
> whether
> it
> > > > should be supported-I mean debates about how we understand the fa=
ct
> that
> > > it
> > > > went into rapid decline in a short span of time."
> > > >
> > > > I find the part of this question about how the conversation has
> shifted
> > > in
> > > > recent years especially interesting.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks in advance for the collective wisdom of the list, which is
> > > > all-knowing and never fails.
> > > >
> > > > Jim Rogers
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Le gach dea ghu=ED
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dr Dymphna Lonergan
> > >
> > > Director Professional Studies Minor
> > >
> > > Convener Professional English (ENGL1001/A; ENGL1012; ENGL1013/A;
> > > Professional Writing PROF2101; PROF8000; Story of Australian Englis=
h
> > > ENGL7214
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Research interests: Irish settlement in South Australia; Irish
> language
> > > in Australia; Placenames Australia (Irish project)
> > >
> > > Publication: /Sounds Irish: The Irish language in Australia
> > > /http://www.lythrumpress.com.au
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "Murray, Edmundo"
Subject: Re: Article,
A Movement from Right to Left in Argentine Nationalism?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Were they rebels because they were Irish? Hard to believe it...

I don't know if this subtle manipulation of historical information =
occurs in other Irish Diaspora destinations - I guess it does. Perhaps =
IR-D members can add other examples to illustrate the "Irish rebel =
syndrome" discourse. Whenever an Irish surname appears after a Latin =
American radical, revolutionary or any type of irregular fighter =
(particularly Catholic and anti-British!), a note is added to emphasize =
his/her Irish roots. Che Guevara supposed Irish ancestry best epitomizes =
the discourse (http://www.irlandeses.org/dilab_guevarae.htm).

I noticed this footnote on Goebel's excellent article when I received =
the latest issue of the SLAS Bulletin. There are several corrections to =
be made to the alleged "Irish dimension" of Argentine revolutionary =
nationalism. First, the "over-representation of Irish Argentines" in =
these groups (as Guillermo MacLoughlin rightly points out in his =
message) follows the proportion of Argentines with other origins, and =
does not mean that they were revolutionaries because they were Irish =
Argentines as the reviewer suggests. Also, all of the people included in =
this note were typical young Argentines in the 1960s and 70s, bearing =
several origins, not only Irish (and some of them, like Jose Luis Nell, =
were not of Irish descent). Furthermore, only a few were conscious of =
their Irish identity, like the celebrated writer Rodolfo Walsh.=20

During the 2006 SLAS conference in Nottingham I presented a paper titled =
"Irish Anarchists and Revolutionaries in Latin America", which started =
with a warning: "You may think that the Irish are naturally rebel" and =
concluded that highlighting Irish names in the rebel ranks is the =
privilege of the historian to edit the reality according to our world =
view, but it is necessary to reassemble the totality to understand that =
the Irish were just another group within Latin American societies.=20

Edmundo Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On =
Behalf Of Guillermo MacLoughlin
Sent: 20 August 2007 20:47
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Article, A Movement from Right to Left in Argentine =
Nationalism?


Thank you for this information.
As you know, the Irish integrated in the Argentine life, so it is not a
surprise to trace them among the Right Nationalism as well into the =
right
and left "guerrilla" movements. Also, during the "dirty war" it is =
possible
to trace Argentine militar officers of Irish extract as well as
Irish-Argentine politicians supporting the militar government.
The Irish-Argentine are every where in my country.
Best regards,

Guillermo MacLoughlin


-----Mensaje original-----
De: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] En =
nombre
de Patrick O'Sullivan
Enviado el: mi=E9rcoles, 15 de agosto de 2007 6:09
Para: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Asunto: [IR-D] Article, A Movement from Right to Left in Argentine
Nationalism?

This item appeared in one of our automated searches - I was not clear =
why,
and explored further.

See extract, and quoted footnote, below...

It is very unusual for comment on Argentineans of Irish origin to appear =
in
anything outside family history - I know that some members of the IR-D =
list
will want to know about this article. And I therefore pass on the
information - without further comment.

Usual between the lines conditions apply...

P.O'S.



Bulletin of Latin American Research

Volume 26 Issue 3 Page 356-377, July 2007

To cite this article: MICHAEL GOEBEL (2007) A Movement from Right to =
Left in
Argentine Nationalism? The Alianza Libertadora Nacionalista and Tacuara =
as
Stages of Militancy Bulletin of Latin American Research 26 (3), 356-377.
doi:10.1111/j.1470-9856.2007.00229.x

A Movement from Right to Left in Argentine Nationalism? The Alianza
Libertadora Nacionalista and Tacuara as Stages of Militancy

* MICHAEL GOEBELaaUniversity College London, UK

*
aUniversity College London, UK

Abstract

This article contributes to debates about fascist influences among
Argentina's guerrilla groups of the 1970s. From the overall perspective =
of
developments in Argentine nationalism, it traces back the history of the
far-right Alianza Libertadora Nacionalista and Tacuara and assesses =
their
significance as the nuclei from which later guerrillas came. Based on =
police
reports and periodical publications from the period in question
(c.1937-c.1973), it makes some generalisations about the collective
biographies of militants. While not contradicting the widely held view =
that
originally fascist groupings played a role in the emergence of Argentine
guerrillas, the article introduces some nuances into this argument.
Particular emphasis is given to the role of Peronism and the Cuban
Revolution as facilitators of changes in Argentine nationalism.

EXTRACT
The most important of the offspring with regard to later developments,
however, was the Movimiento Nacionalista Revolucionario Tacuara (MNRT),
which was formally constituted in December 1962, under the leadership of =
Joe
Baxter and Jos=E9 Luis Nell. Both were law students of Irish descent,6

WHICH REFERS TO FOOTNOTE

6 As one of the anonymous reviewers of this article has put it, the =
Irish
dimension may be 'not just anecdotal'. Given the small size of =
Argentina's
Irish community, the inordinate number of Argentines of Irish origin in
revolutionary nationalist circles is conspicuous indeed: besides Baxter
(who, however, was of Anglo-Irish descent) and Nell, two more leading
tacuaristas, Juan Mario Collins and Nicanor D'El=EDa Cavanagh, were of =
Irish
origin. So were Nell's partner, Luc=EDa Cullen (first FAP, later =
Montoneros),
Walsh (see below) and, on the paternal side, Cooke and Kelly. Another
example was Norma Kennedy (see below). This over-representation of Irish
Argentines may well have to do with similarities between Argentine and =
Irish
nationalism, which both allowed for both left- and right-wing currents =
and
drew on anti-British feelings and Catholicism. Interestingly, the other
over-represented group in these circles were Argentines of Croatian =
descent
(e.g. Tomislav Rivaric (see below), Daniel Zverko (first GRN, then
Montoneros), Jaroslav Dazac (ALN) and the Peronist nacionalista =
politician
Oscar Ivanissevich).

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/953 - Release Date: =
14/08/2007
17:19
=20

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20
Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.1/962 - Release Date: =
20/08/2007
13:08
=20

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Breen O Conchubhair
Subject: Re: the Irish language and the historians
In-Reply-To:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

On the issue of tally sticks, does anyone have an image or possess an
actual 'tally stick'?

Has anyone ever seen the actual object?


Many thanks,
Breen



Brian O Conchubhair,
Assistant Professor,
Dept. of Irish Language and Literature,
University of Notre Dame,
Notre Dame,
IN 46556,
USA

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick Maume
Subject: Re: the Irish language and the historians
In-Reply-To:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

From: Patrick Maume
The verse "I thank the goodness and the grace/That on my youth has smiled/
And made me in these christian days/A happy English child" appeared in
National School readers for much of the C19. It is traditionally attribute=
d
to Archbishop Richard Whately (Dublin, Church of Ireland) though I am not
sure if it was actually by him.
The tallystick system is cited in much debate about how far the decline o=
f
the language was voluntary; those who stress state compulsion emphasise the
role of the school, those who argue that it was due to wider communal
attitudes point out that it required the parents to co-operate in enforcing
it. (Some versions of the system report it as taking place only in the
school, others have the parents marking the stick when they hear the child
use Irish at home & sending the child to school with the stick to be
punished by the teacher. I don't know if anyone has studied the subject in
depth, especially as there are not likely to be many contemporaneous writte=
n
records of how it operated.) Similar tallystick systems were I bleive foun=
d
in schools in wales and highland Scotland.
When I referrred to a "collapse" of religious practice in Ireland I did
not mean that nobody goes to church any more. (I should add that I was
referring fairly specifically to one specific religious culture, the
Catholic one, just as the original discussion relates to one specific
language, Irish - the Moslems are not really relevant in this context, any
more than the black Evangelical families whom I see heading for church when
I walk through Dublin on Sunday mornings - or the presence of German or
Italian-speakers in C19 Ireland wa to the change from Irish to English) Wha=
t
I meant was that there has been a drop in regular Mass attendance among
nominal Catholics from around 90-95% in 1990 to around 50-60% now. If a
political party lost a third of its voters, or a corporation a third of
its customers, in 15 years that could reasonably be described as a
collapse. Furthermore there has been a wider shift in public discourse ove=
r
the last 30 years or so from one in which it was assumed that most people i=
n
Ireland were believeing Catholics (even on a pretty conformist level in
which atheists and agnostics were expected to keep their views to
themselves) and that this should to some extent be reflected in the public
sphere, to one in which it is tacitly asumed at least in metropolitan and
media circles that it is the religious believers who should/do regard their
beliefs as a private matter which is embarassing to be raised in public.
The number of journalists/public commentators who not only say they are
atheists but who openly declare that they regard religious belief as
self-evidently preposterous is an interesting index of this [the difference
between the rejection of Catholicism by a Joyce or Brian Moore, who regarde=
d
it as a serious intellectual/cultural phenomenon even if they did not share
it, and the mindset of a Joseph O'Connor or Gerald Stembridge] as is the
contrast between the SUNDAY INDEPENDENT C.1957 (very outspokenly devotional
Catholic, agony column run by a priest) or 1967 (very earnestly liberal
Catholic, holding forth on Vatican II) with what it is today.
I might add that pre-Vatican II Ireland was not as sui generis as
suggested here; 1940s and 1950s Quebec had a very high level of religious
observance which went from 90 to 20% in something like thirty years, and I
suspect a lot of the old immigrant ghetto areas in Britain and North Americ=
a
have seen similar trends.
I am not saying in this context whether this change is good or bad, but I=
t
has undeniably taken place
Best wishes,
PAtrick

On 8/24/07, Rogers, James wrote:
>
> Michael Hayes's mention of the tally stick system put me in mind of John
> Montague's wonderful poem about that sort of punishment, "A Grafted
> Tongue"
> -- which a google search quickly found posted here (probably in blissful
> defiance of copyright law):
>
> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/IrelandGenWeb/2006-04/1146420599
>
> JSR
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: micheal.ohaodha [mailto:micheal.ohaodha[at]UL.IE]
> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 10:48 AM
> To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
> Subject: Re: [IR-D] the Irish language and the historians
>
> A few points in relation to this very interesting thread:
>
> To say that religious practice has "collapsed" in Ireland is an
> exaggeration. Ireland still has one of the highest (probably (almost
> certainly?) the highest) Church attendance rates in Europe (for both
> Catholics and Protestants) - somebody of the Islamic faith might be able
> to
> give us an idea of their levels of practice - the mosque certainly looks
> packed in my home town of Galway any weekend I am back there - not enough
> room for everybody and so the crowd spills out onto the street) and this
> decline in the modern era was inevitable to certain extent given that it
> is
> a decline from attendance levels that were so high that they must have
> been
> unprecedented in any country. There are also big disparities between a
> large
> urban area such as Dublin and the rest of the country.
>
> The speed of language change can be verified to a certain point by
> referring
> to personal testimony also - When they became elderly my grandparents -
> born
> (around early 1900s in East Galway) - lived with us (my parents and
> another
> grand-aunt)in an extended family household including 11 children (i.e. my
> brothers and sisters)and a grand-aunt. Both of my grandparents came from
> families who were involved in trade and would have needed both languages
> (Irish and English)
>
> My grandmother who lived to a very good age told me that there were plent=
y
> of people in their area (especially bachelor farmers and tradesmen) who
> were
> monoglot Irish-speakers and these people filled in the census (or had
> someone fill it in for them) - which I think was issued prior to 1916 i.e=
.
> issued by the British and in English - not sure of the year) - to indicat=
e
> as much.
> Everybody else, including children, said that they could speak both Irish
> and English - read up on some some birth certs and census forms from this
> era a few years ago.
> Despite growing up in an environment where both languages were spoken
> quite
> widely - my grandparents (in their old age) did not understand one word o=
f
> the Nuacht - (Irish-speaking news) when it was shown on television. There
> was also a tally-stick system in operation involving punishment for
> speaking
> Irish (punishment at school and then at home for being hit at school) -
> even
> though the teacher (ironically) was often themselves a native Irish
> speaker
> as were many of their pupils - often the majority.
> In school, in the Church and in all officialdom - Irish was "looked down
> upon" and seen as useless - and this attitude continued on for many
> decades
> after the early 1900s.
>
> The language of instruction in every subject - (even Catechism) was
> through
> English - this was also the case in the Gaeltacht areas. Probably the
> majority of children from this era emigrated (to America especially -and
> so
> Irish was "no good" to them either. To be honest, it always amazes me,tha=
t
> Irish has survived so long - given these conditions.
>
> My grandmother also told me of a poem that they had to recite each day at
> school (neither she nor my grandfather went any further than a few years
> of
> National School) which went something like this - (maybe somebody can fil=
l
> it in for me if I have it wrong:
>
> "I thank the goodness and the grace, which on my birth has smiled
> And made me in these (**Christian?**) days a happy English child."
>
>
> Beannachtai
>
> Michael Hayes
> Department of History
> University of Limerick
> Limerick
> Ireland
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On
> Behalf
> Of Muiris Mag Ualghairg
> Sent: 23 August 2007 13:05
> To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
> Subject: Re: [IR-D] the Irish language and the historians
>
> I'm not sure who has done the research in Wales, probably Colin
> Williams, but I know that statistician who does all the work on the
> Welsh language on behalf of the Welsh Language Board, so I'll ask him
> if he knows who has done the research.
>
> Interestingly, it appears that the Irish community in parts of Wales,
> Merthyr for example, kept their Irish after moving into Wales, for a
> generation or so and also learnt Welsh. I think that Peredur Lynch may
> have more on this in one of his publications.
>
> Muiris
>
> On 23/08/07, Patrick Maume wrote:
> > From: Patrick Maume
> > It might be worth referring back to Sean de Freine's THE GREAT
> SILENCE,
> > which revolves around the central point that the language collapsed wit=
h
> > amazing speed in the nineteenth century and the very limited amount of
> > attention which has been paid to this.
> > I think the dominant view now tends to play down state compulsion and
> to
> > emphasise the extent to which the change was driven by parents
> themselves
> > seeing Irish as useless (though it could be argued that this needs to
> push
> > responsibility back a stage further, to discuss how these conditions
> came
> > into existence). It would also be pointed out that the collapse was th=
e
> > end-result of a longer process in which Irish got driven out of elite
> > culture and of many spheres of life, and where it failed to make the
> > transition to print on any significant scale until the Gaelic Revival a=
t
> the
> > end of the nineteenth century. (The implicit comparison would be with
> > Welsh, which made the print transition earlier and had significant
> numbers
> > of local Welsh-language newspapers in the Victorian period.)
> > One parallel which might be worth considering would be with the decline
> of
> > Catholicism in Ireland in recent decades; here again we have an idiom
> which
> > was almost universal within the ROI until very recently (NB the extent
> to
> > which even in the 60s and 70s the state is described by people
> > unselfconsciously as a "Catholic country", devotional language is used
> > spontaneously, &C) and which has been driven back with great rapidity
> into
> > the private sphere and even there has thinned out quite
> considerably. So
> > much so that Malachi O'Doherty had an articel in a recent issue of
> MAGILL
> > suggesting that Ireland can never "really" have been Catholic because i=
t
> > collapsed so quickly, which seems to me like saying on the same basis
> that
> > Ireland had never "really" been Irish-speaking. (BTW I am not making
> any
> > comment here about whether the secularisation process is a good thing o=
r
> not
> > - I'm simply saying that there is a parallel that might be worth
> > considering. Declan Kiberd has made a similar comparison in suggesting
> that
> > the abandonment of Irish and of catholicism as soon as these were
> perceived
> > as inconvenient shows that the Irish have never been a conservative
> people
> -
> > but Iwould not look to Declan Kiberd for detailed analysis.)
> > The sudden collapse in Mass attendance in the 1990s after a period
> when
> > Church-state controversy and increasing disregard for clerical authorit=
y
> > coexisted with continued religious observance, reminded me of some
> research
> > I heard about language change in parts of Wales. This discovered that
> until
> > the number of English-speaking monoglots on a previously Welsh-speaking
> area
> > reached a tipping-point (about 25%) the amount of Welsh used in public
> > conversations remained high, much higher than the proportion of the
> > population able to speak Welsh - about 90%. Once the tipping point (at
> > which any group of 3-4 people could assume that one of them would not
> > understand Welsh) was reached the level of usage fell - not to 75% but
> far
> > below it. This sounds familiar, though I am not sure how this was
> > measured. Does anyone have the reference?
> > Best wishes,
> > PAtrick
> >
> >
> > On 8/23/07, Dymphna Lonergan wrote:
> > >
> > > My own interest is in to what extent the language survived in an
> > > English-speaking setting, especially in the New Worlds. The dominant
> > > narrative has been that the language did not survive once there was a
> > > /need/ to speak English. Another narrative has been that the language
> > > was voluntarily surrendered once there was an /opportunity/ to speak
> > > English. My own narrative is that the language /survived/ as long as
> > > there was an /opportunity/ to speak it. Enjoy!
> > >
> > > Rogers, James wrote:
> > > > I wonder if the list could chime in on this query, from someone
> whom
> I
> > > > assume must be writing about Friel's Translations, and which I
> feel
> a
> > > bit
> > > > overmatched to answer:
> > > >
> > > > "What (if any) are the present-day debates circling around the
> decline
> > > of
> > > > the Irish language in the 19th century? Is there a dominant
> narrative
> to
> > > > which historians and others subscribe, eg, that it was voluntarily
> > > > surrendered, or that it was systematically suppressed? And has
> thinking
> > > on
> > > > this changed in recent decades? I'm not looking for debates about
> the
> > > > significance or value of the language itself, or about how or
> whether
> it
> > > > should be supported-I mean debates about how we understand the fact
> that
> > > it
> > > > went into rapid decline in a short span of time."
> > > >
> > > > I find the part of this question about how the conversation has
> shifted
> > > in
> > > > recent years especially interesting.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks in advance for the collective wisdom of the list, which is
> > > > all-knowing and never fails.
> > > >
> > > > Jim Rogers
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Le gach dea ghu=ED
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dr Dymphna Lonergan
> > >
> > > Director Professional Studies Minor
> > >
> > > Convener Professional English (ENGL1001/A; ENGL1012; ENGL1013/A;
> > > Professional Writing PROF2101; PROF8000; Story of Australian English
> > > ENGL7214
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Research interests: Irish settlement in South Australia; Irish
> language
> > > in Australia; Placenames Australia (Irish project)
> > >
> > > Publication: /Sounds Irish: The Irish language in Australia
> > > /http://www.lythrumpress.com.au
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "micheal.ohaodha"
Subject: Re: the Irish language and the historians
In-Reply-To: A
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

When I was speaking about "collapse" there it wasn't with reference to =
your comments Patrick - more in the context of well-known public figures =
who are always harping on about a collapse etc.=20
Best

-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On =
Behalf Of Patrick Maume
Sent: 27 August 2007 15:11
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] the Irish language and the historians

From: Patrick Maume
The verse "I thank the goodness and the grace/That on my youth has =
smiled/
And made me in these christian days/A happy English child" appeared in
National School readers for much of the C19. It is traditionally =
attributed
to Archbishop Richard Whately (Dublin, Church of Ireland) though I am =
not
sure if it was actually by him.
The tallystick system is cited in much debate about how far the =
decline of
the language was voluntary; those who stress state compulsion emphasise =
the
role of the school, those who argue that it was due to wider communal
attitudes point out that it required the parents to co-operate in =
enforcing
it. (Some versions of the system report it as taking place only in the
school, others have the parents marking the stick when they hear the =
child
use Irish at home & sending the child to school with the stick to be
punished by the teacher. I don't know if anyone has studied the subject =
in
depth, especially as there are not likely to be many contemporaneous =
written
records of how it operated.) Similar tallystick systems were I bleive =
found
in schools in wales and highland Scotland.
When I referrred to a "collapse" of religious practice in Ireland I =
did
not mean that nobody goes to church any more. (I should add that I was
referring fairly specifically to one specific religious culture, the
Catholic one, just as the original discussion relates to one specific
language, Irish - the Moslems are not really relevant in this context, =
any
more than the black Evangelical families whom I see heading for church =
when
I walk through Dublin on Sunday mornings - or the presence of German or
Italian-speakers in C19 Ireland wa to the change from Irish to English) =
What
I meant was that there has been a drop in regular Mass attendance among
nominal Catholics from around 90-95% in 1990 to around 50-60% now. If a
political party lost a third of its voters, or a corporation a third of
its customers, in 15 years that could reasonably be described as a
collapse. Furthermore there has been a wider shift in public discourse =
over
the last 30 years or so from one in which it was assumed that most =
people in
Ireland were believeing Catholics (even on a pretty conformist level in
which atheists and agnostics were expected to keep their views to
themselves) and that this should to some extent be reflected in the =
public
sphere, to one in which it is tacitly asumed at least in metropolitan =
and
media circles that it is the religious believers who should/do regard =
their
beliefs as a private matter which is embarassing to be raised in public.
The number of journalists/public commentators who not only say they are
atheists but who openly declare that they regard religious belief as
self-evidently preposterous is an interesting index of this [the =
difference
between the rejection of Catholicism by a Joyce or Brian Moore, who =
regarded
it as a serious intellectual/cultural phenomenon even if they did not =
share
it, and the mindset of a Joseph O'Connor or Gerald Stembridge] as is the
contrast between the SUNDAY INDEPENDENT C.1957 (very outspokenly =
devotional
Catholic, agony column run by a priest) or 1967 (very earnestly liberal
Catholic, holding forth on Vatican II) with what it is today.
I might add that pre-Vatican II Ireland was not as sui generis as
suggested here; 1940s and 1950s Quebec had a very high level of =
religious
observance which went from 90 to 20% in something like thirty years, and =
I
suspect a lot of the old immigrant ghetto areas in Britain and North =
America
have seen similar trends.
I am not saying in this context whether this change is good or bad, =
but It
has undeniably taken place
Best wishes,
PAtrick

On 8/24/07, Rogers, James wrote:
>
> Michael Hayes's mention of the tally stick system put me in mind of =
John
> Montague's wonderful poem about that sort of punishment, "A Grafted
> Tongue"
> -- which a google search quickly found posted here (probably in =
blissful
> defiance of copyright law):
>
> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/IrelandGenWeb/2006-04/1146420599
>
> JSR
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: micheal.ohaodha [mailto:micheal.ohaodha[at]UL.IE]
> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 10:48 AM
> To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
> Subject: Re: [IR-D] the Irish language and the historians
>
> A few points in relation to this very interesting thread:
>
> To say that religious practice has "collapsed" in Ireland is an
> exaggeration. Ireland still has one of the highest (probably (almost
> certainly?) the highest) Church attendance rates in Europe (for both
> Catholics and Protestants) - somebody of the Islamic faith might be =
able
> to
> give us an idea of their levels of practice - the mosque certainly =
looks
> packed in my home town of Galway any weekend I am back there - not =
enough
> room for everybody and so the crowd spills out onto the street) and =
this
> decline in the modern era was inevitable to certain extent given that =
it
> is
> a decline from attendance levels that were so high that they must have
> been
> unprecedented in any country. There are also big disparities between a
> large
> urban area such as Dublin and the rest of the country.
>
> The speed of language change can be verified to a certain point by
> referring
> to personal testimony also - When they became elderly my grandparents =
-
> born
> (around early 1900s in East Galway) - lived with us (my parents and
> another
> grand-aunt)in an extended family household including 11 children (i.e. =
my
> brothers and sisters)and a grand-aunt. Both of my grandparents came =
from
> families who were involved in trade and would have needed both =
languages
> (Irish and English)
>
> My grandmother who lived to a very good age told me that there were =
plenty
> of people in their area (especially bachelor farmers and tradesmen) =
who
> were
> monoglot Irish-speakers and these people filled in the census (or had
> someone fill it in for them) - which I think was issued prior to 1916 =
i.e.
> issued by the British and in English - not sure of the year) - to =
indicate
> as much.
> Everybody else, including children, said that they could speak both =
Irish
> and English - read up on some some birth certs and census forms from =
this
> era a few years ago.
> Despite growing up in an environment where both languages were spoken
> quite
> widely - my grandparents (in their old age) did not understand one =
word of
> the Nuacht - (Irish-speaking news) when it was shown on television. =
There
> was also a tally-stick system in operation involving punishment for
> speaking
> Irish (punishment at school and then at home for being hit at school) =
-
> even
> though the teacher (ironically) was often themselves a native Irish
> speaker
> as were many of their pupils - often the majority.
> In school, in the Church and in all officialdom - Irish was "looked =
down
> upon" and seen as useless - and this attitude continued on for many
> decades
> after the early 1900s.
>
> The language of instruction in every subject - (even Catechism) was
> through
> English - this was also the case in the Gaeltacht areas. Probably the
> majority of children from this era emigrated (to America especially =
-and
> so
> Irish was "no good" to them either. To be honest, it always amazes =
me,that
> Irish has survived so long - given these conditions.
>
> My grandmother also told me of a poem that they had to recite each day =
at
> school (neither she nor my grandfather went any further than a few =
years
> of
> National School) which went something like this - (maybe somebody can =
fill
> it in for me if I have it wrong:
>
> "I thank the goodness and the grace, which on my birth has smiled
> And made me in these (**Christian?**) days a happy English child."
>
>
> Beannachtai
>
> Michael Hayes
> Department of History
> University of Limerick
> Limerick
> Ireland
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On
> Behalf
> Of Muiris Mag Ualghairg
> Sent: 23 August 2007 13:05
> To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
> Subject: Re: [IR-D] the Irish language and the historians
>
> I'm not sure who has done the research in Wales, probably Colin
> Williams, but I know that statistician who does all the work on the
> Welsh language on behalf of the Welsh Language Board, so I'll ask him
> if he knows who has done the research.
>
> Interestingly, it appears that the Irish community in parts of Wales,
> Merthyr for example, kept their Irish after moving into Wales, for a
> generation or so and also learnt Welsh. I think that Peredur Lynch may
> have more on this in one of his publications.
>
> Muiris
>
> On 23/08/07, Patrick Maume wrote:
> > From: Patrick Maume
> > It might be worth referring back to Sean de Freine's THE GREAT
> SILENCE,
> > which revolves around the central point that the language collapsed =
with
> > amazing speed in the nineteenth century and the very limited amount =
of
> > attention which has been paid to this.
> > I think the dominant view now tends to play down state compulsion =
and
> to
> > emphasise the extent to which the change was driven by parents
> themselves
> > seeing Irish as useless (though it could be argued that this needs =
to
> push
> > responsibility back a stage further, to discuss how these conditions
> came
> > into existence). It would also be pointed out that the collapse was =
the
> > end-result of a longer process in which Irish got driven out of =
elite
> > culture and of many spheres of life, and where it failed to make the
> > transition to print on any significant scale until the Gaelic =
Revival at
> the
> > end of the nineteenth century. (The implicit comparison would be =
with
> > Welsh, which made the print transition earlier and had significant
> numbers
> > of local Welsh-language newspapers in the Victorian period.)
> > One parallel which might be worth considering would be with the =
decline
> of
> > Catholicism in Ireland in recent decades; here again we have an =
idiom
> which
> > was almost universal within the ROI until very recently (NB the =
extent
> to
> > which even in the 60s and 70s the state is described by people
> > unselfconsciously as a "Catholic country", devotional language is =
used
> > spontaneously, &C) and which has been driven back with great =
rapidity
> into
> > the private sphere and even there has thinned out quite
> considerably. So
> > much so that Malachi O'Doherty had an articel in a recent issue of
> MAGILL
> > suggesting that Ireland can never "really" have been Catholic =
because it
> > collapsed so quickly, which seems to me like saying on the same =
basis
> that
> > Ireland had never "really" been Irish-speaking. (BTW I am not =
making
> any
> > comment here about whether the secularisation process is a good =
thing or
> not
> > - I'm simply saying that there is a parallel that might be worth
> > considering. Declan Kiberd has made a similar comparison in =
suggesting
> that
> > the abandonment of Irish and of catholicism as soon as these were
> perceived
> > as inconvenient shows that the Irish have never been a conservative
> people
> -
> > but Iwould not look to Declan Kiberd for detailed analysis.)
> > The sudden collapse in Mass attendance in the 1990s after a period
> when
> > Church-state controversy and increasing disregard for clerical =
authority
> > coexisted with continued religious observance, reminded me of some
> research
> > I heard about language change in parts of Wales. This discovered =
that
> until
> > the number of English-speaking monoglots on a previously =
Welsh-speaking
> area
> > reached a tipping-point (about 25%) the amount of Welsh used in =
public
> > conversations remained high, much higher than the proportion of the
> > population able to speak Welsh - about 90%. Once the tipping point =
(at
> > which any group of 3-4 people could assume that one of them would =
not
> > understand Welsh) was reached the level of usage fell - not to 75% =
but
> far
> > below it. This sounds familiar, though I am not sure how this was
> > measured. Does anyone have the reference?
> > Best wishes,
> > PAtrick
> >
> >
> > On 8/23/07, Dymphna Lonergan =
wrote:
> > >
> > > My own interest is in to what extent the language survived in an
> > > English-speaking setting, especially in the New Worlds. The =
dominant
> > > narrative has been that the language did not survive once there =
was a
> > > /need/ to speak English. Another narrative has been that the =
language
> > > was voluntarily surrendered once there was an /opportunity/ to =
speak
> > > English. My own narrative is that the language /survived/ as long =
as
> > > there was an /opportunity/ to speak it. Enjoy!
> > >
> > > Rogers, James wrote:
> > > > I wonder if the list could chime in on this query, from someone
> whom
> I
> > > > assume must be writing about Friel's Translations, and which I
> feel
> a
> > > bit
> > > > overmatched to answer:
> > > >
> > > > "What (if any) are the present-day debates circling around the
> decline
> > > of
> > > > the Irish language in the 19th century? Is there a dominant
> narrative
> to
> > > > which historians and others subscribe, eg, that it was =
voluntarily
> > > > surrendered, or that it was systematically suppressed? And has
> thinking
> > > on
> > > > this changed in recent decades? I'm not looking for debates =
about
> the
> > > > significance or value of the language itself, or about how or
> whether
> it
> > > > should be supported-I mean debates about how we understand the =
fact
> that
> > > it
> > > > went into rapid decline in a short span of time."
> > > >
> > > > I find the part of this question about how the conversation has
> shifted
> > > in
> > > > recent years especially interesting.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks in advance for the collective wisdom of the list, which =
is
> > > > all-knowing and never fails.
> > > >
> > > > Jim Rogers
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Le gach dea ghu=ED
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dr Dymphna Lonergan
> > >
> > > Director Professional Studies Minor
> > >
> > > Convener Professional English (ENGL1001/A; ENGL1012; ENGL1013/A;
> > > Professional Writing PROF2101; PROF8000; Story of Australian =
English
> > > ENGL7214
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Research interests: Irish settlement in South Australia; Irish
> language
> > > in Australia; Placenames Australia (Irish project)
> > >
> > > Publication: /Sounds Irish: The Irish language in Australia
> > > /http://www.lythrumpress.com.au
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "micheal.ohaodha"
Subject: Re: the Irish language and the historians
In-Reply-To: A
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Patrick=20
Your points are absolutely right there.
When I was commenting about "collapse" there earlier it wasn't with =
reference to your comments Patrick - more in the context of well-known =
public figures (usually Dublin-based) - I'm sure you know the types whom =
I mean) who are always harping on about a "collapse" in such-and-such =
and that Ireland as a country can be categorised as post-this and =
post-that...=20
- making really general statements without really getting down to the =
nitty-gritty and the situation on the ground which is usually a good =
deal more complicated.
Best
Micheal=20
Limerick



-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On =
Behalf Of Patrick Maume
Sent: 27 August 2007 15:11
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] the Irish language and the historians

From: Patrick Maume
The verse "I thank the goodness and the grace/That on my youth has =
smiled/
And made me in these christian days/A happy English child" appeared in
National School readers for much of the C19. It is traditionally =
attributed
to Archbishop Richard Whately (Dublin, Church of Ireland) though I am =
not
sure if it was actually by him.
The tallystick system is cited in much debate about how far the =
decline of
the language was voluntary; those who stress state compulsion emphasise =
the
role of the school, those who argue that it was due to wider communal
attitudes point out that it required the parents to co-operate in =
enforcing
it. (Some versions of the system report it as taking place only in the
school, others have the parents marking the stick when they hear the =
child
use Irish at home & sending the child to school with the stick to be
punished by the teacher. I don't know if anyone has studied the subject =
in
depth, especially as there are not likely to be many contemporaneous =
written
records of how it operated.) Similar tallystick systems were I bleive =
found
in schools in wales and highland Scotland.
When I referrred to a "collapse" of religious practice in Ireland I =
did
not mean that nobody goes to church any more. (I should add that I was
referring fairly specifically to one specific religious culture, the
Catholic one, just as the original discussion relates to one specific
language, Irish - the Moslems are not really relevant in this context, =
any
more than the black Evangelical families whom I see heading for church =
when
I walk through Dublin on Sunday mornings - or the presence of German or
Italian-speakers in C19 Ireland wa to the change from Irish to English) =
What
I meant was that there has been a drop in regular Mass attendance among
nominal Catholics from around 90-95% in 1990 to around 50-60% now. If a
political party lost a third of its voters, or a corporation a third of
its customers, in 15 years that could reasonably be described as a
collapse. Furthermore there has been a wider shift in public discourse =
over
the last 30 years or so from one in which it was assumed that most =
people in
Ireland were believeing Catholics (even on a pretty conformist level in
which atheists and agnostics were expected to keep their views to
themselves) and that this should to some extent be reflected in the =
public
sphere, to one in which it is tacitly asumed at least in metropolitan =
and
media circles that it is the religious believers who should/do regard =
their
beliefs as a private matter which is embarassing to be raised in public.
The number of journalists/public commentators who not only say they are
atheists but who openly declare that they regard religious belief as
self-evidently preposterous is an interesting index of this [the =
difference
between the rejection of Catholicism by a Joyce or Brian Moore, who =
regarded
it as a serious intellectual/cultural phenomenon even if they did not =
share
it, and the mindset of a Joseph O'Connor or Gerald Stembridge] as is the
contrast between the SUNDAY INDEPENDENT C.1957 (very outspokenly =
devotional
Catholic, agony column run by a priest) or 1967 (very earnestly liberal
Catholic, holding forth on Vatican II) with what it is today.
I might add that pre-Vatican II Ireland was not as sui generis as
suggested here; 1940s and 1950s Quebec had a very high level of =
religious
observance which went from 90 to 20% in something like thirty years, and =
I
suspect a lot of the old immigrant ghetto areas in Britain and North =
America
have seen similar trends.
I am not saying in this context whether this change is good or bad, =
but It
has undeniably taken place
Best wishes,
PAtrick

On 8/24/07, Rogers, James wrote:
>
> Michael Hayes's mention of the tally stick system put me in mind of =
John
> Montague's wonderful poem about that sort of punishment, "A Grafted
> Tongue"
> -- which a google search quickly found posted here (probably in =
blissful
> defiance of copyright law):
>
> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/IrelandGenWeb/2006-04/1146420599
>
> JSR
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: micheal.ohaodha [mailto:micheal.ohaodha[at]UL.IE]
> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 10:48 AM
> To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
> Subject: Re: [IR-D] the Irish language and the historians
>
> A few points in relation to this very interesting thread:
>
> To say that religious practice has "collapsed" in Ireland is an
> exaggeration. Ireland still has one of the highest (probably (almost
> certainly?) the highest) Church attendance rates in Europe (for both
> Catholics and Protestants) - somebody of the Islamic faith might be =
able
> to
> give us an idea of their levels of practice - the mosque certainly =
looks
> packed in my home town of Galway any weekend I am back there - not =
enough
> room for everybody and so the crowd spills out onto the street) and =
this
> decline in the modern era was inevitable to certain extent given that =
it
> is
> a decline from attendance levels that were so high that they must have
> been
> unprecedented in any country. There are also big disparities between a
> large
> urban area such as Dublin and the rest of the country.
>
> The speed of language change can be verified to a certain point by
> referring
> to personal testimony also - When they became elderly my grandparents =
-
> born
> (around early 1900s in East Galway) - lived with us (my parents and
> another
> grand-aunt)in an extended family household including 11 children (i.e. =
my
> brothers and sisters)and a grand-aunt. Both of my grandparents came =
from
> families who were involved in trade and would have needed both =
languages
> (Irish and English)
>
> My grandmother who lived to a very good age told me that there were =
plenty
> of people in their area (especially bachelor farmers and tradesmen) =
who
> were
> monoglot Irish-speakers and these people filled in the census (or had
> someone fill it in for them) - which I think was issued prior to 1916 =
i.e.
> issued by the British and in English - not sure of the year) - to =
indicate
> as much.
> Everybody else, including children, said that they could speak both =
Irish
> and English - read up on some some birth certs and census forms from =
this
> era a few years ago.
> Despite growing up in an environment where both languages were spoken
> quite
> widely - my grandparents (in their old age) did not understand one =
word of
> the Nuacht - (Irish-speaking news) when it was shown on television. =
There
> was also a tally-stick system in operation involving punishment for
> speaking
> Irish (punishment at school and then at home for being hit at school) =
-
> even
> though the teacher (ironically) was often themselves a native Irish
> speaker
> as were many of their pupils - often the majority.
> In school, in the Church and in all officialdom - Irish was "looked =
down
> upon" and seen as useless - and this attitude continued on for many
> decades
> after the early 1900s.
>
> The language of instruction in every subject - (even Catechism) was
> through
> English - this was also the case in the Gaeltacht areas. Probably the
> majority of children from this era emigrated (to America especially =
-and
> so
> Irish was "no good" to them either. To be honest, it always amazes =
me,that
> Irish has survived so long - given these conditions.
>
> My grandmother also told me of a poem that they had to recite each day =
at
> school (neither she nor my grandfather went any further than a few =
years
> of
> National School) which went something like this - (maybe somebody can =
fill
> it in for me if I have it wrong:
>
> "I thank the goodness and the grace, which on my birth has smiled
> And made me in these (**Christian?**) days a happy English child."
>
>
> Beannachtai
>
> Michael Hayes
> Department of History
> University of Limerick
> Limerick
> Ireland
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On
> Behalf
> Of Muiris Mag Ualghairg
> Sent: 23 August 2007 13:05
> To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
> Subject: Re: [IR-D] the Irish language and the historians
>
> I'm not sure who has done the research in Wales, probably Colin
> Williams, but I know that statistician who does all the work on the
> Welsh language on behalf of the Welsh Language Board, so I'll ask him
> if he knows who has done the research.
>
> Interestingly, it appears that the Irish community in parts of Wales,
> Merthyr for example, kept their Irish after moving into Wales, for a
> generation or so and also learnt Welsh. I think that Peredur Lynch may
> have more on this in one of his publications.
>
> Muiris
>
> On 23/08/07, Patrick Maume wrote:
> > From: Patrick Maume
> > It might be worth referring back to Sean de Freine's THE GREAT
> SILENCE,
> > which revolves around the central point that the language collapsed =
with
> > amazing speed in the nineteenth century and the very limited amount =
of
> > attention which has been paid to this.
> > I think the dominant view now tends to play down state compulsion =
and
> to
> > emphasise the extent to which the change was driven by parents
> themselves
> > seeing Irish as useless (though it could be argued that this needs =
to
> push
> > responsibility back a stage further, to discuss how these conditions
> came
> > into existence). It would also be pointed out that the collapse was =
the
> > end-result of a longer process in which Irish got driven out of =
elite
> > culture and of many spheres of life, and where it failed to make the
> > transition to print on any significant scale until the Gaelic =
Revival at
> the
> > end of the nineteenth century. (The implicit comparison would be =
with
> > Welsh, which made the print transition earlier and had significant
> numbers
> > of local Welsh-language newspapers in the Victorian period.)
> > One parallel which might be worth considering would be with the =
decline
> of
> > Catholicism in Ireland in recent decades; here again we have an =
idiom
> which
> > was almost universal within the ROI until very recently (NB the =
extent
> to
> > which even in the 60s and 70s the state is described by people
> > unselfconsciously as a "Catholic country", devotional language is =
used
> > spontaneously, &C) and which has been driven back with great =
rapidity
> into
> > the private sphere and even there has thinned out quite
> considerably. So
> > much so that Malachi O'Doherty had an articel in a recent issue of
> MAGILL
> > suggesting that Ireland can never "really" have been Catholic =
because it
> > collapsed so quickly, which seems to me like saying on the same =
basis
> that
> > Ireland had never "really" been Irish-speaking. (BTW I am not =
making
> any
> > comment here about whether the secularisation process is a good =
thing or
> not
> > - I'm simply saying that there is a parallel that might be worth
> > considering. Declan Kiberd has made a similar comparison in =
suggesting
> that
> > the abandonment of Irish and of catholicism as soon as these were
> perceived
> > as inconvenient shows that the Irish have never been a conservative
> people
> -
> > but Iwould not look to Declan Kiberd for detailed analysis.)
> > The sudden collapse in Mass attendance in the 1990s after a period
> when
> > Church-state controversy and increasing disregard for clerical =
authority
> > coexisted with continued religious observance, reminded me of some
> research
> > I heard about language change in parts of Wales. This discovered =
that
> until
> > the number of English-speaking monoglots on a previously =
Welsh-speaking
> area
> > reached a tipping-point (about 25%) the amount of Welsh used in =
public
> > conversations remained high, much higher than the proportion of the
> > population able to speak Welsh - about 90%. Once the tipping point =
(at
> > which any group of 3-4 people could assume that one of them would =
not
> > understand Welsh) was reached the level of usage fell - not to 75% =
but
> far
> > below it. This sounds familiar, though I am not sure how this was
> > measured. Does anyone have the reference?
> > Best wishes,
> > PAtrick
> >
> >
> > On 8/23/07, Dymphna Lonergan =
wrote:
> > >
> > > My own interest is in to what extent the language survived in an
> > > English-speaking setting, especially in the New Worlds. The =
dominant
> > > narrative has been that the language did not survive once there =
was a
> > > /need/ to speak English. Another narrative has been that the =
language
> > > was voluntarily surrendered once there was an /opportunity/ to =
speak
> > > English. My own narrative is that the language /survived/ as long =
as
> > > there was an /opportunity/ to speak it. Enjoy!
> > >
> > > Rogers, James wrote:
> > > > I wonder if the list could chime in on this query, from someone
> whom
> I
> > > > assume must be writing about Friel's Translations, and which I
> feel
> a
> > > bit
> > > > overmatched to answer:
> > > >
> > > > "What (if any) are the present-day debates circling around the
> decline
> > > of
> > > > the Irish language in the 19th century? Is there a dominant
> narrative
> to
> > > > which historians and others subscribe, eg, that it was =
voluntarily
> > > > surrendered, or that it was systematically suppressed? And has
> thinking
> > > on
> > > > this changed in recent decades? I'm not looking for debates =
about
> the
> > > > significance or value of the language itself, or about how or
> whether
> it
> > > > should be supported-I mean debates about how we understand the =
fact
> that
> > > it
> > > > went into rapid decline in a short span of time."
> > > >
> > > > I find the part of this question about how the conversation has
> shifted
> > > in
> > > > recent years especially interesting.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks in advance for the collective wisdom of the list, which =
is
> > > > all-knowing and never fails.
> > > >
> > > > Jim Rogers
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Le gach dea ghu=ED
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dr Dymphna Lonergan
> > >
> > > Director Professional Studies Minor
> > >
> > > Convener Professional English (ENGL1001/A; ENGL1012; ENGL1013/A;
> > > Professional Writing PROF2101; PROF8000; Story of Australian =
English
> > > ENGL7214
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Research interests: Irish settlement in South Australia; Irish
> language
> > > in Australia; Placenames Australia (Irish project)
> > >
> > > Publication: /Sounds Irish: The Irish language in Australia
> > > /http://www.lythrumpress.com.au
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Muiris Mag Ualghairg
Subject: Re: the Irish language and the historians
In-Reply-To:
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I don't know about ones in Ireland but there are examples of the Welsh
Not in Wales, and first hand records of it being used. Part of the
problem in Wales was that teachers were paid by results, and the exams
were in English so the children had to be able to speak English in
order for the teacher to be paid - money is a strong incentive for
teachers to try to change children's behaviour. How were teachers paid
in Ireland in the 19th Century?

Of course, Wales also experienced massive immigration from outside the
Country, including the Irish who seem to have adopted a violent
anti-Welsh attitude which still persists amongst their decedents, who
now, ironically, are effectively the 'British' element in Welsh
politics, but then it was a militia from Ireland that put down the
'Newport Rising' and Daniel O'Connell expressed his satisfaction that
the did so (although of course other Irishmen were on the other side
organising the rebellion as well!)

Muiris

On 27/08/07, Breen O Conchubhair wrote:
> On the issue of tally sticks, does anyone have an image or possess an
> actual 'tally stick'?
>
> Has anyone ever seen the actual object?
>
>
> Many thanks,
> Breen
>
>
>
> Brian O Conchubhair,
> Assistant Professor,
> Dept. of Irish Language and Literature,
> University of Notre Dame,
> Notre Dame,
> IN 46556,
> USA
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Dymphna Lonergan
Subject: Re: the Irish language and the historians
In-Reply-To:
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Maybe archaeology can help in knowing what the tally stick looked like.=20
In 1992 our own Paddy advocated a study of the bata scoir in his review=20
of a book by Malcolm Campbell:
'He is sceptical about the Breton 'symbole' and the Scottish=20
'maide-crochaidh' or 'tessera': is it not time we had a good look at the=20
'bata scoir'?'
http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/reviews/celts.shtml

Muiris Mag Ualghairg wrote:
> I don't know about ones in Ireland but there are examples of the Welsh
> Not in Wales, and first hand records of it being used. Part of the
> problem in Wales was that teachers were paid by results, and the exams
> were in English so the children had to be able to speak English in
> order for the teacher to be paid - money is a strong incentive for
> teachers to try to change children's behaviour. How were teachers paid
> in Ireland in the 19th Century?
>
> Of course, Wales also experienced massive immigration from outside the
> Country, including the Irish who seem to have adopted a violent
> anti-Welsh attitude which still persists amongst their decedents, who
> now, ironically, are effectively the 'British' element in Welsh
> politics, but then it was a militia from Ireland that put down the
> 'Newport Rising' and Daniel O'Connell expressed his satisfaction that
> the did so (although of course other Irishmen were on the other side
> organising the rebellion as well!)
>
> Muiris
>
> On 27/08/07, Breen O Conchubhair wrote:
> =20
>> On the issue of tally sticks, does anyone have an image or possess an
>> actual 'tally stick'?
>>
>> Has anyone ever seen the actual object?
>>
>>
>> Many thanks,
>> Breen
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian O Conchubhair,
>> Assistant Professor,
>> Dept. of Irish Language and Literature,
>> University of Notre Dame,
>> Notre Dame,
>> IN 46556,
>> USA
>>
>> =20
>
> =20

--=20

Le gach dea ghu=ED

=20

=20

=20

Dr Dymphna Lonergan

Director Professional Studies Minor

Convener Professional English (ENGL1001/A; ENGL1012; ENGL1013/A;=20
Professional Writing PROF2101; PROF8000; Story of Australian English=20
ENGL7214

=20

Research interests: Irish settlement in South Australia; Irish language=20
in Australia; Placenames Australia (Irish project)

Publication: /Sounds Irish: The Irish language in Australia=20
/http://www.lythrumpress.com.au

=20

=20

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Dan Leach
Subject: Re: the Irish language and the historians
In-Reply-To:
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There are many accounts of a similar system of shaming schoolchildren in
Brittany. Anyone heard speaking Breton in the schoolground would be
forced to wear a 'symbole' (similar to the Welsh Not), and couldn't pass
it on until they overheard someone else speaking it. The idea of
linguistic conformity creating national unity is still pronounced in
France, but was certainly at its most intolerant in the earlier years of
the last century.

Interestingly, there are numerous accounts of Breton-speakers being
equated with extra-territorial national enemies, particularly Germans.
One tells of a teacher screaming at a young child to "go back across the
Rhine" if he didn't want to speak French. Per Denez, former professor of
Breton at the University of Rennes II, told me in an interview that a
teacher had thrust dog faeces under the nose of another young
Breton-speaker, telling him "this is the stink of your language".

Given this kind of discrimination, it's not surprising that in the minds
of most brittophone parents the best gift they could bestow upon their
children was an education in French and a complete ignorance of Breton,
even down to eradicating all traces of accent.

Dan Leach
U. of Melbourne

Muiris Mag Ualghairg wrote:
> I don't know about ones in Ireland but there are examples of the Welsh
> Not in Wales, and first hand records of it being used. Part of the
> problem in Wales was that teachers were paid by results, and the exams
> were in English so the children had to be able to speak English in
> order for the teacher to be paid - money is a strong incentive for
> teachers to try to change children's behaviour. How were teachers paid
> in Ireland in the 19th Century?
>
> Of course, Wales also experienced massive immigration from outside the
> Country, including the Irish who seem to have adopted a violent
> anti-Welsh attitude which still persists amongst their decedents, who
> now, ironically, are effectively the 'British' element in Welsh
> politics, but then it was a militia from Ireland that put down the
> 'Newport Rising' and Daniel O'Connell expressed his satisfaction that
> the did so (although of course other Irishmen were on the other side
> organising the rebellion as well!)
>
> Muiris
>
> On 27/08/07, Breen O Conchubhair wrote:
>
>> On the issue of tally sticks, does anyone have an image or possess an
>> actual 'tally stick'?
>>
>> Has anyone ever seen the actual object?
>>
>>
>> Many thanks,
>> Breen
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian O Conchubhair,
>> Assistant Professor,
>> Dept. of Irish Language and Literature,
>> University of Notre Dame,
>> Notre Dame,
>> IN 46556,
>> USA
>>
>>
>
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Paul O'Leary
Subject: Re: IR-D the Irish language and the historians
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I don't know of any surviving images of tally sticks, but examples of the
Welsh Not do exist. See the following:



http://www.gtj.org.uk/en/subjects/1909



(Click on the images for enlargements.)



One of the key aspects of such practices is how widespread they are, to what
extent they receive parental support, and whether there are alternative
avenues for creating esteem for a non-state language. In the Welsh case
there was an alternative in the nineteenth century, the extremely popular
voluntary Protestant Sunday Schools which were conducted through the medium
of Welsh and succeeded in inculcating high levels of literacy in that
language. This seems to me to be one of the key differences between Ireland
and Wales in that century. In that respect, the attitude of the Catholic
Church to Irish can be seen as an important factor in the failure to create
linguistic domains that might have counteracted (at least to some degree)
wider developments in society. Whether and how that changed in the twentieth
century is another issue, but by then much of the damage to the fabric of
Irish-speaking society seems to have been done.



Best wishes



Paul







Dr Paul O'Leary

Adran Hanes a Hanes Cymru / Dept. of History and Welsh History,

Prifysgol Cymru Aberystwyth / University of Wales Aberystwyth

Aberystwyth

Ceredigion, SY23 3DY

UK



Tel: 01970 622842



Ebost: ppo[at]aber.ac.uk / Email: ppo[at]aber.ac.uk




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I don't know about ones in Ireland but there are examples of the Welsh
Not in Wales, and first hand records of it being used. Part of the
problem in Wales was that teachers were paid by results, and the exams
were in English so the children had to be able to speak English in
order for the teacher to be paid - money is a strong incentive for
teachers to try to change children's behaviour. How were teachers paid
in Ireland in the 19th Century?

Of course, Wales also experienced massive immigration from outside the
Country, including the Irish who seem to have adopted a violent
anti-Welsh attitude which still persists amongst their decedents, who
now, ironically, are effectively the 'British' element in Welsh
politics, but then it was a militia from Ireland that put down the
'Newport Rising' and Daniel O'Connell expressed his satisfaction that
the did so (although of course other Irishmen were on the other side
organising the rebellion as well!)

Muiris

On 27/08/07, Breen O Conchubhair wrote:
> On the issue of tally sticks, does anyone have an image or possess an
> actual 'tally stick'?
>
> Has anyone ever seen the actual object?
>
>
> Many thanks,
> Breen
>
>
>
> Brian O Conchubhair,
> Assistant Professor,
> Dept. of Irish Language and Literature,
> University of Notre Dame,
> Notre Dame,
> IN 46556,
> USA
>

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7E95F.F687FA60--

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: mdenie[at]WESTGA.EDU
Subject: Women and the Catholic Association
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I would like to pick the List's collective brain if I might. I
received a very good question from a student the other day: "Were
women allowed to join O'Connell's Catholic Association?" I have not
been able to discover anything definitive either way. Does anyone have
any knowledge on this? Many thanks in advance.

Michael



Michael de Nie
Department of History
University of West Georgia
mdenie[at]westga.edu

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick Maume
Subject: Re: Women and the Catholic Association
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From: patrick Maume
I don't know of any evidence that they were and I suspect it is unlikely
because of contemporary attitudes to women appearing at/speaking at public
meetings. (I wonder if there might have been some sort of "Ladies'
Auxiliary" rather like the women's anti-slavery societies of the same
period?) Erin Bishop's life of Mary O'Connell does not to the best of my
knowledge make any reference to her being involved even nominally with any
such body and if there had been one the leaders' wife might be expected to
be prominent in it even in name only (as with Mrs. Gladstone and the Women's
Liberal Federation in the 1880s.
O'Connell I believe was in favour of women's suffrage; he certainly
supported the view that women should be admitted to speak at anti-slavery
meetings when the question was debated in the 1830s.
A more promising approach might be to see what evidence there is for
peasant/working-class female participation in O'Connellite demonstrations -
Gary OWens should have some information on the subject.
It might also be worthwhile looking at some of O'Connell's female
relatives other than Mary. His daughter Ellen O'Connell Fizsimons to some
extent was seen as a "keeper of the flame" - she was supposed to write an
official biography but it never appeared although she lived until the 1870s
or 1880s. Does anyone know why she abandoned it?
Best wishes,
Patrick


On 8/29/07, mdenie[at]westga.edu wrote:
>
> I would like to pick the List's collective brain if I might. I
> received a very good question from a student the other day: "Were
> women allowed to join O'Connell's Catholic Association?" I have not
> been able to discover anything definitive either way. Does anyone have
> any knowledge on this? Many thanks in advance.
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> Michael de Nie
> Department of History
> University of West Georgia
> mdenie[at]westga.edu
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "William Mulligan Jr."
Subject: Administrative Message
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1. I have had some email/ISP issues the last few days and it appears =
some
messages I approved did not appear on the list. If you sent a message =
and
it has not appeared -- and you receive your posts -- please resubmit it. =
I
am sorry for any inconvenience.=20

2. Per the above, the default setting for IR-D is for individuals NOT =
to
receive copies of their own posts. You can change this if you go to
www.jiscmail.ac.uk and change your settings.=20

3. We have had several threads recently that generated a lot of =
activity --
please try to remember to delete the long trail of prior messages. =
Thanks
for your attention to this.=20

Bill

William H. Mulligan, Jr., Ph.D.
Professor of History & Graduate Program Coordinator=20
Murray State University
Murray KY 42071-3341 USA=20
Office: 1-270-809-6571
Fax: 1-270-809-6587=20
=20
=20