Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Muiris Mag Ualghairg
Subject: Re: No Dogs
In-Reply-To:
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The sentiment seems a bit similar to that chanted (supposedly) by
Manchester City fans at Manchester United Fans during 'local' derby
matches

"Where are you from?"

Manchester United has a global fan base and the inference is that the
supporters aren't from Manchester and shouldn't be there.

Muiris

On 25/09/2007, Patrick O'Sullivan wrote:
> From: Joe Bradley
> Sent: 25 September 2007 09:30
> To: 'The Irish Diaspora Studies List'
> Subject: RE: [IR-D] No Dogs
>
> With this discussion in mind list members might be interested in viewing
> this large banner (one of two) which was used by Glasgow Rangers fans to
> demonstrate against the Irishness of Celtic supporters in a fixture
> early this year
>
> Joe
>
>
> Moderator's Note
>
> The banner says
> THIS IS OUR CITY. WHERE IN IRELAND IS GLASGOW?
>
> Joe Bradley attached to his message a photograph, a JPG file.
> The IR-D list's software and rules do not permit the onward distribution of
> such attachments, which, in any case, would be blocked by many institutions'
> firewalls.
>
> I have placed Joe's attachment on
> www.irishdiaspora.net
> in
> Folder 24 The Irish-Diaspora list - UPDATES June 2004 onwards
> Under Exhibits,
> Where the JPG is available, top right.
> This facility has long been available, though we have not used it much.
>
> It allows IR-D members to share visual material and texts.
>
> P.O'S.
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "Ni Laoire, Caitriona"
Subject: Re: No Dogs
In-Reply-To: A
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Apparently 'No Irish' signs were common on the Wirral as late as the =
1970s. A friend of mine who grew up there remembers them.

Caitr=EDona.



-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On =
Behalf Of Ultan Cowley
Sent: 24 September 2007 23:12
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] No Dogs

For what its worth, I frequently saw 'No Irish' (just that - Blacks and =
Dogs didn't feature) riders on handwritten accommodation notices in =
corner shops around Cricklewood, Kilburn, and West Hampstead throughout =
the decade 1961-1971.

I don't recall whether, in any of the previous discussions referred to =
by Paddy which I may have followed, any attempt was made to determine =
why exactly landlords/ladies thought it necessary to add such riders. =
Has anyone ever thought to ask them?=20

For a reference to my take on this vis a vis Irish construction workers =
in particular see p. 189,'Damping Down the Bed', in The Men who built =
Britain.=20

Ultan Cowley











The Irish Diaspora Studies List wrote:





< Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 12:21 PM
< Subject: [IR-D] Urgent Request
< =20
< =20
< Hello Irish Diaspora members,
< I have been asked for a photo/image of a 'No Irish, No Dogs' sign =
that wo=3D
< uld=3D20
< have been seen in Britain during the post-war period and which is =
not=3D20
< subject to copyright for the cover of a book soon to be published =
here in=3D
< =3D20
< France.
< I would need this by tomorrow! I would be very grateful to anyone =
that ma=3D
< y=3D20
< be able to send one on to me by mail.
< Many thanks,
< =20
< Grainne O=3DE2=3D80=3D99Keeffe-Vigneron
< University Rennes 2
< =20



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Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Marion Casey
Subject: Re: No Dogs
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Dear Tom,

Richard Jensen was thoroughly discredited here on the Irish Diaspora list in 2003. Nevertheless he continues to circulate his article via internet newsgroups -- as recently as August this summer it reached and disturbed members of the Long Island Civil War Reenactors and Living Historians Alliance -- which seems to indicate that Jensen has a wider, perhaps political agenda, in trying to rewrite Irish American history.

"No Irish Need Apply" ads are not a myth. Just search the New York Times or Brooklyn Eagle online databases -- or indeed any 19th century online newspaper -- for that exact phrase or (as you appropriately pointed out) "No Irish" and you will see the evidence yourself. The ads are not biased towards women in general nor maids in particular. They are, in fact, indicative of a general climate of discrimination in which such ads were matter-of-fact right through to the end of the century.

Be well,
Marion

Marion R. Casey
Glucksman Ireland House
New York University

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas J. Archdeacon"
Date: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 12:14 pm
Subject: Re: [IR-D] No Dogs
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK


> Richard Jensen has raised doubts about "No Irish Need Apply" signs or
> codicils to advertisements in the U.S. The signs are a staple of popular
> memory among Irish Americans, although the vast majority -- if not
> all -- of
> those who could remember them must be dead by this time. RJ goes so
> far as
> to question whether of not the phrase "No Irish Need Apply" or the acronym
> "NINA" ever was common, because he has had a hard time finding them through
> the search tools for online newspapers. RJ points to a popular song
> by an
> Irish-American in which he gives a beating to a man who told him "No
> Irish
> Need Apply." He suggests that the memory may document Irish
> resistance to
> the discrimination they felt directed against themselves rather than
> the
> actual widespread distribution of such signs.
>
> Ages ago, when I was doing research for my MA, I encountered
> newspapers ads
> -- usually for positions as domestics -- that simply said "No Irish."
> My
> research was on corruption in state construction projects in New York
> in the
> 1870s, and I paid attention to the ads simply because of my background.
> Therefore, my memory might be playing tricks on me, but I'd say there
> is
> evidence that public expressions akin to "No Irish Need Apply" signs
> existed.
>
> The London Metropolitan University exhibit shows a photo of a handwritten
> "No Irish, etc." sign in a house window. It is convincing evidence
> that at
> least one such sign existed, and I'd assume it implies others did as
> well.
> The question becomes, how common were such signs? Were they ever so
> prevalent that formally printed versions appeared? How many pictures
> of
> such signs are extant? If few pictures exist, is that because the signs
> were anomalies, or is it because the Irish were too embarrassed or
> intimidated to document the discrimination?
>
> Tom
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "Thomas J. Archdeacon"
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Dear Marion et al.:

The story has it that, in certain American towns near military bases,
especially during the first half of the 20th century, signs that "servicemen
and dogs, keep off the grass" were common. If true, what does the story
prove?

I agree that Jensen overstates his case. I cannot say whether or not Jensen
(a Notre Dame graduate) has a political agenda. From what I know of him
(and he and I have corresponded from time to time), Jensen is (like me) a
very empirically oriented historian and likes to see documentation of
claims.

Discrimination -- overt and covert -- against the Irish certainly existed.
My concern is more with the particular ways in which it was manifested. It
relates as well to things like the tally stick issue the list recently
discussed. I have no doubt that teachers put tremendous pressure on Irish
kids to speak English rather than Gaelic. (Heck, when I was in first grade
at St. Catherine of Siena Grammar School in Manhattan, there was concern
that I might have a speech defect because I had a hard time with pronouncing
the "th" sound. That's a real problem when your name is Thomas -- probably
why I always use Tom. My over-sophisticated explanation now is that it
reflected the curiosities of the pronunciation of "th" in Gaelic influenced
districts like those from which my parents came. The nuns didn't even
realize the extent to which they had been domesticated).

The question doesn't involve the existence of discrimination or of pressure
toward linguistic change. It involves the memory of the implementation of
that discrimination and pressure. How common were "No Irish" signs; how
often were tally sticks actually used? If they were common, how come
finding pictures of them or the artifacts themselves is so difficult?

These are empirical questions that might perhaps shed light on deeper
questions. I have no interest or agenda in finding one particular answer or
another. Whatever the truth is will tell us something.

Tom



-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behalf
Of Patrick O'Sullivan
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 12:13 PM
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: [IR-D] No Dogs

From: "D C Rose"
To: "The Irish Diaspora Studies List"
Subject: No Dogs


When I was working with the Camden Council's Committee for Community
Relations in the late 1960s, we heard tell of signs (from an early day) that
said 'No Welsh'. I think such signs (ands I daresay 'No Jews' too) were
common enough when there was the perception of an 'intolerable' minority;
and doubtless many landladies did and do discriminate against dogs. But is
there actual evidence for 'No Irish' plus 'No blacks' plus 'no dogs' all on
the same sign? It is the inclusion of this last that I am curious about.
It is of course peculiarly offensive in the context, but was there a
context, or only a legend?

A friend of mine from Northern Ireland lived quietly in a house with a No
Irish sign, revealing his origin when he left. The landlady had thought
from his accent that he was Scottish....

David Rose

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: Article, Fight,
flight and playing white: An examination of coping strategies
adopted by Gypsy Traveller Adolescents in English secondary
schools
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International Journal of Educational Research
Article in Press, Corrected Proof

Fight, flight and playing white: An examination of coping strategies adopted
by Gypsy Traveller Adolescents in English secondary schools

Chris Derringtona, E-mail The Corresponding Author
aThe University of Northampton, Park Campus, Northampton NN2 7AL, UK
Received 25 October 2006; revised 19 June 2007; accepted 28 June 2007.
Available online 21 August 2007.


Abstract

This paper draws on findings from a longitudinal study of Gypsy Traveller1
students attending English secondary schools. Analysis of over 400
interviews with 44 Gypsy Traveller students, their parents and teachers over
a 5-year period identified several pull and push factors that impact on
secondary school engagement and retention. Of these, cultural dissonance (a
result of conflicting expectations between home and school) and social
exclusion feature strongly. Students who relied on maladaptive coping
strategies to deal with psychosocial stress associated with cultural
dissonance and social exclusion tended to drop out of school early. These
maladaptive strategies are referred to here as fight (physical and verbal
retaliation and non-compliance), flight (self-imposed exclusion) and playing
white (passing identity by concealing or denying one's heritage). Those who
were retained in school to the age of 16 displayed more adaptive strategies
such as cognitive re-framing, developing social support networks and
adopting a bicultural identity.


1 While it is recognised that different heritage descriptions are adopted
and self-ascribed by individuals and groups, the term Gypsy Traveller is
used here to encompass both Romany Gypsies and Travellers of Irishnext term
descent who agreed to participate in this longitudinal study.

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: No Dogs
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From: Joe Bradley [mailto:j.m.bradley[at]stir.ac.uk]

Such a conclusion would miss the point Muiris - and it should not be
reduced in such a way nor should it be seen as 'football banter' - the
banner held up by Glasgow Rangers fans requires to be seen in its
historical, cultural, religious and political contexts - and these have
an ongoing relevance in the Scotland of 'many cultures', as the Scottish
Executive has been telling us. The Manchester 'banter' is also
important to my mind however and says much - and it too should be viewed
in context (for example, the globalisation of sport, or that money is
destroying football in Britain?) but it cannot begin to be compared with
this Glasgow example.


Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On
Behalf Of Muiris Mag Ualghairg
Sent: 25 September 2007 10:57
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] No Dogs

The sentiment seems a bit similar to that chanted (supposedly) by
Manchester City fans at Manchester United Fans during 'local' derby
matches

"Where are you from?"

Manchester United has a global fan base and the inference is that the
supporters aren't from Manchester and shouldn't be there.

Muiris

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "William Mulligan Jr."
Subject: Re: No Dogs
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I think Jensen does much more than "overstate his case." There are =
serious
problems with his research design and the selection of newspapers he =
used.
This was all brought up on the list in 2003, as Marion pointed out, and
Jensen never addressed any of these issues. Those who are interested =
should
consult the list archives. It was a spirited and very good debate. =
Jensen
may well be correct that the classic "No Irish Need Apply" window sign =
did
not exist, clearly none from the nineteenth-century have yet been found =
--
but he goes far beyond that in denying discrimination against the Irish =
did
not exist because he did not find advertisements in newspapers stating =
no
Irish need apply. But, the problems with his sample are so severe his
findings cannot be sustained under close investigation. Again, as =
Marian
points out -- if one looks at newspapers from cities with large Irish
populations, like New York and Brooklyn, there are numerous ads stating =
that
Irish were not welcome to apply. Discrimination against the Irish was =
real
and it was persistent, at least on the east coast. =20

Bill

William H. Mulligan, Jr., Ph.D.
Professor of History
Graduate Program Coordinator=20
Murray State University
Murray KY 42071-3341 USA=20
Office: 1-270-809-6571
Fax: 1-270-809-6587=20
=20
=20

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: No Dogs
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From: "D C Rose"
To: "The Irish Diaspora Studies List"
Subject: No Dogs


When I was working with the Camden Council's Committee for Community
Relations in the late 1960s, we heard tell of signs (from an early day) that
said 'No Welsh'. I think such signs (ands I daresay 'No Jews' too) were
common enough when there was the perception of an 'intolerable' minority;
and doubtless many landladies did and do discriminate against dogs. But is
there actual evidence for 'No Irish' plus 'No blacks' plus 'no dogs' all on
the same sign? It is the inclusion of this last that I am curious about.
It is of course peculiarly offensive in the context, but was there a
context, or only a legend?

A friend of mine from Northern Ireland lived quietly in a house with a No
Irish sign, revealing his origin when he left. The landlady had thought
from his accent that he was Scottish....

David Rose

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "Belchem, J"
Subject: NINA
MIME-Version: 1.0
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=20
For the prevalence of NINA in 19th century Liverpool - and some =
engagement with Richard Jensen - see chapter one of my Irish, Catholic =
and Scouse: the history of the Liverpool Irish, 1800-1939, hot off the =
press from Liverpool University Press!

=20

John Belchem

=20
=20
Professor John Belchem
Pro-Vice-Chancellor
University of Liverpool
The Foundation Building
765 Brownlow Hill
Liverpool, L69 7ZX
Tel: + 44 (0)151 794 2220
Fax: +44 (0)151 794 2929
email: j.c.belchem[at]liv.ac.uk
=20
=20

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Anthony Mcnicholas
Subject: Re: No Dogs
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I grew up in west london in the 60s and never myself saw such signs but =
a slightly older English friend who grew up near me on the Harrow Road, =
an Irish and then Carribean area said he could recall 'no Irish, no =
blacks, no animals' and the like in boarding house windows. he =
maintained they were quite common. i know it would not be accepted in a =
court of law but there you are.
anthony
=20
Dr Anthony McNicholas
CAMRI
University of Westminster
0118 948 61614 (BBC WAC)

________________________________

From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List on behalf of Thomas J. Archdeacon
Sent: Tue 9/25/2007 3:12 PM
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] No Dogs



Richard Jensen has raised doubts about "No Irish Need Apply" signs or
codicils to advertisements in the U.S. The signs are a staple of =
popular
memory among Irish Americans, although the vast majority -- if not all =
-- of
those who could remember them must be dead by this time. RJ goes so far =
as
to question whether of not the phrase "No Irish Need Apply" or the =
acronym
"NINA" ever was common, because he has had a hard time finding them =
through
the search tools for online newspapers. RJ points to a popular song by =
an
Irish-American in which he gives a beating to a man who told him "No =
Irish
Need Apply." He suggests that the memory may document Irish resistance =
to
the discrimination they felt directed against themselves rather than the
actual widespread distribution of such signs.

Ages ago, when I was doing research for my MA, I encountered newspapers =
ads
-- usually for positions as domestics -- that simply said "No Irish." =
My
research was on corruption in state construction projects in New York in =
the
1870s, and I paid attention to the ads simply because of my background.
Therefore, my memory might be playing tricks on me, but I'd say there is
evidence that public expressions akin to "No Irish Need Apply" signs
existed.

The London Metropolitan University exhibit shows a photo of a =
handwritten
"No Irish, etc." sign in a house window. It is convincing evidence that =
at
least one such sign existed, and I'd assume it implies others did as =
well.
The question becomes, how common were such signs? Were they ever so
prevalent that formally printed versions appeared? How many pictures of
such signs are extant? If few pictures exist, is that because the signs
were anomalies, or is it because the Irish were too embarrassed or
intimidated to document the discrimination?

Tom




--
The University of Westminster is a charity and a company limited by
guarantee. Registration number: 977818 England. Registered Office:
309 Regent Street, London W1B 2UW, UK.

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Ultan Cowley
Organization: Eircom Net (http://www.eircom.net/)
Subject: Re: No Dogs
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I too 'lived quietly' on occasion in 'rooms' rented by English landladies in '60s London who expressly forbade Irish tenants but who failed to detect my nationality by my ( at that time) rather neutral Dublin accent.

I still wonder about the validity of discussing anti-Irish discrimination by employers and similar discrimination by those renting accommodation as though they shared the same motivation because I'm not convinced that such is the case in all, or even most, instances.

This always seems to happen when the Irish-American experience and that of the Irish in Britain become conflated in these discussions.

Many older Irish emigrants of my acquaintance recalled encountering NINA employment bans prior to World War Two, but not thereafter, and I myself never met with this in the 1960s, although I worked at a great variety of jobs around London, as well as serving briefly in the RAF. Securing accommodation, however, was quite a different matter...

Ultan







The Irish Diaspora Studies List wrote:



< Subject: No Dogs
<
<
< When I was working with the Camden Council's Committee for Community
< Relations in the late 1960s, we heard tell of signs (from an early day) that
< said 'No Welsh'. I think such signs (ands I daresay 'No Jews' too) were
< common enough when there was the perception of an 'intolerable' minority;
< and doubtless many landladies did and do discriminate against dogs. But is
< there actual evidence for 'No Irish' plus 'No blacks' plus 'no dogs' all on
< the same sign? It is the inclusion of this last that I am curious about.
< It is of course peculiarly offensive in the context, but was there a
< context, or only a legend?
<
< A friend of mine from Northern Ireland lived quietly in a house with a No
< Irish sign, revealing his origin when he left. The landlady had thought
< from his accent that he was Scottish....
<
< David Rose
<



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Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: No Dogs
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From:
To: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
Subject: Re: [IR-D] No Dogs

Anthony

I imagine, given that you were presumably living at home, you would
have had no occasion to peruse accommodation ads. in any event. We see only
what we're looking for, by and large...

Background is inherent in these discussions, I suspect. Very few of the
Irish academics involved, even had they been in Britain back then, would
have lived amongst working class people so would not have observed these
issues being played out.

Working class Irish emigrants, for their part, rarely tell the whole story
and take refuge behind the mythologies. There are elephants in the room...

Glad you're through the Ph.D. mill and enjoying the rewards of your labours.

Kind regards

Ultan








The Irish Diaspora Studies List wrote:

<
< I grew up in west london in the 60s and never myself saw such signs but =
< a slightly older English friend who grew up near me on the Harrow Road, =
< an Irish and then Carribean area said he could recall 'no Irish, no =
< blacks, no animals' and the like in boarding house windows. he =
< maintained they were quite common. i know it would not be accepted in a =
< court of law but there you are.
< anthony
< =20
< Dr Anthony McNicholas
< CAMRI
< University of Westminster
< 0118 948 61614 (BBC WAC)
<

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "micheal.ohaodha"
Subject: Re: No Dogs
In-Reply-To: A
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

For more discussions of "No Blacks, No Irish" - See biographies of Irish
singers - such as Phil Lynnott and Johnny Lydon (Sex Pistols).

Although she was a qualified nurse and working at a hospital in England
Phil Lynnott's mother had difficulty getting lodgings there because she
was Irish, pregnant and the father of her child was black - in fact -
(if I recall rightly) - she found the situation so intolerant at the
time that she actually came back to Ireland to have Phil (born in 1949)-
which Phil often said in interviews was the best "career move" he ever
made - given that he now had the exotic "aura" of being one of the first
Irish stars who was both black and Irish

Best
Micheal Hayes=20
Department of History
University of Limerick







-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On
Behalf Of Anthony Mcnicholas
Sent: 25 September 2007 20:26
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] No Dogs

I grew up in west london in the 60s and never myself saw such signs but
a slightly older English friend who grew up near me on the Harrow Road,
an Irish and then Carribean area said he could recall 'no Irish, no
blacks, no animals' and the like in boarding house windows. he
maintained they were quite common. i know it would not be accepted in a
court of law but there you are.
anthony
=20
Dr Anthony McNicholas
CAMRI
University of Westminster
0118 948 61614 (BBC WAC)

________________________________

From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List on behalf of Thomas J. Archdeacon
Sent: Tue 9/25/2007 3:12 PM
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] No Dogs



Richard Jensen has raised doubts about "No Irish Need Apply" signs or
codicils to advertisements in the U.S. The signs are a staple of
popular
memory among Irish Americans, although the vast majority -- if not all
-- of
those who could remember them must be dead by this time. RJ goes so far
as
to question whether of not the phrase "No Irish Need Apply" or the
acronym
"NINA" ever was common, because he has had a hard time finding them
through
the search tools for online newspapers. RJ points to a popular song by
an
Irish-American in which he gives a beating to a man who told him "No
Irish
Need Apply." He suggests that the memory may document Irish resistance
to
the discrimination they felt directed against themselves rather than the
actual widespread distribution of such signs.

Ages ago, when I was doing research for my MA, I encountered newspapers
ads
-- usually for positions as domestics -- that simply said "No Irish."
My
research was on corruption in state construction projects in New York in
the
1870s, and I paid attention to the ads simply because of my background.
Therefore, my memory might be playing tricks on me, but I'd say there is
evidence that public expressions akin to "No Irish Need Apply" signs
existed.

The London Metropolitan University exhibit shows a photo of a
handwritten
"No Irish, etc." sign in a house window. It is convincing evidence that
at
least one such sign existed, and I'd assume it implies others did as
well.
The question becomes, how common were such signs? Were they ever so
prevalent that formally printed versions appeared? How many pictures of
such signs are extant? If few pictures exist, is that because the signs
were anomalies, or is it because the Irish were too embarrassed or
intimidated to document the discrimination?

Tom




--=20
The University of Westminster is a charity and a company limited by
guarantee. Registration number: 977818 England. Registered Office:
309 Regent Street, London W1B 2UW, UK.

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Liam Greenslade
Subject: Re: No Dogs
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Dear all

The 1954 film 'Doctor in the House' (Dir Ralph Thomas), loosely based on the first of Richard Gordon's 'Doctor' books contains a 3-4 second shot of an accommodation advertisement on the St Swithin's medical school notice board which clearly and emphatically states 'No Irish'. I no longer have the clip but I used it many times to illustrate attitudes to the Irish in 1950s Britain on an Irish film studies course I developed back in the 1990s. One way of interpreting this focus in the context of the film is that it signifies the 'respectable' nature of the lodgings offered. More importantly, it indicates the commonplace nature of Irish social exclusion in this period.

Liam

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: FW: [IR-D] No Dogs
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Interestingly enough versions of that title turn up in 2 places

1.
The New Audio Book by Lord Taylor of Warwick

No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs

From poverty to Parliament...
The Inspiring Story of Lord Taylor of Warwick
http://www.lordtaylor.org/cdrom.html

etc.


2.
Rotten: No Irish, No Blacks, No Dogs
by John Lydon
http://www.johnlydon.com/jlbooks.html

etc...

on Page 276:
'... In the development of England's history, there was a time when John's
mob - the Irish - and blacks and dogs were thrown together. There used to be
signs in the hotels and places for rent that said...'

So, perhaps, not a good source...

Amongst the reviews...
Rotten: No Irish, No Blacks, No Dogs
John Lydon; Keith Zimmerman; Kent Zimmerman
Review author[s]: George McKay
Popular Music, Vol. 14, No. 2. (May, 1995), pp. 279-281.

Describes the book as a collection of badly transcribed interviews - the
word bricoleux is used - but does see how being working class Irish in
England contributes to later punk alientation...

No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs
No Irish, No Blacks, No Dogs

...subtle difference in cadence, I think...

Paddy



-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behalf
Of micheal.ohaodha
Sent: 26 September 2007 09:25
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] No Dogs

For more discussions of "No Blacks, No Irish" - See biographies of Irish
singers - such as Phil Lynnott and Johnny Lydon (Sex Pistols).

Although she was a qualified nurse and working at a hospital in England
Phil Lynnott's mother had difficulty getting lodgings there because she
was Irish, pregnant and the father of her child was black - in fact -
(if I recall rightly) - she found the situation so intolerant at the
time that she actually came back to Ireland to have Phil (born in 1949)-
which Phil often said in interviews was the best "career move" he ever
made - given that he now had the exotic "aura" of being one of the first
Irish stars who was both black and Irish

Best
Micheal Hayes
Department of History
University of Limerick

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His father was Brazilian... See 'Phil Lynott, Famous For Many Reasons'
by John Horan
http://www.irlandeses.org/0607horan.htm

Edmundo Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On
Behalf Of micheal.ohaodha
Sent: 26 September 2007 10:25
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] No Dogs


For more discussions of "No Blacks, No Irish" - See biographies of Irish
singers - such as Phil Lynnott and Johnny Lydon (Sex Pistols).

Although she was a qualified nurse and working at a hospital in England
Phil Lynnott's mother had difficulty getting lodgings there because she
was Irish, pregnant and the father of her child was black - in fact -
(if I recall rightly) - she found the situation so intolerant at the
time that she actually came back to Ireland to have Phil (born in 1949)-
which Phil often said in interviews was the best "career move" he ever
made - given that he now had the exotic "aura" of being one of the first
Irish stars who was both black and Irish

Best
Micheal Hayes=20
Department of History
University of Limerick







-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On
Behalf Of Anthony Mcnicholas
Sent: 25 September 2007 20:26
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] No Dogs

I grew up in west london in the 60s and never myself saw such signs but
a slightly older English friend who grew up near me on the Harrow Road,
an Irish and then Carribean area said he could recall 'no Irish, no
blacks, no animals' and the like in boarding house windows. he
maintained they were quite common. i know it would not be accepted in a
court of law but there you are.
anthony
=20
Dr Anthony McNicholas
CAMRI
University of Westminster
0118 948 61614 (BBC WAC)

________________________________

From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List on behalf of Thomas J. Archdeacon
Sent: Tue 9/25/2007 3:12 PM
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] No Dogs



Richard Jensen has raised doubts about "No Irish Need Apply" signs or
codicils to advertisements in the U.S. The signs are a staple of
popular
memory among Irish Americans, although the vast majority -- if not all
-- of
those who could remember them must be dead by this time. RJ goes so far
as
to question whether of not the phrase "No Irish Need Apply" or the
acronym
"NINA" ever was common, because he has had a hard time finding them
through
the search tools for online newspapers. RJ points to a popular song by
an
Irish-American in which he gives a beating to a man who told him "No
Irish
Need Apply." He suggests that the memory may document Irish resistance
to
the discrimination they felt directed against themselves rather than the
actual widespread distribution of such signs.

Ages ago, when I was doing research for my MA, I encountered newspapers
ads
-- usually for positions as domestics -- that simply said "No Irish."
My
research was on corruption in state construction projects in New York in
the
1870s, and I paid attention to the ads simply because of my background.
Therefore, my memory might be playing tricks on me, but I'd say there is
evidence that public expressions akin to "No Irish Need Apply" signs
existed.

The London Metropolitan University exhibit shows a photo of a
handwritten
"No Irish, etc." sign in a house window. It is convincing evidence that
at
least one such sign existed, and I'd assume it implies others did as
well.
The question becomes, how common were such signs? Were they ever so
prevalent that formally printed versions appeared? How many pictures of
such signs are extant? If few pictures exist, is that because the signs
were anomalies, or is it because the Irish were too embarrassed or
intimidated to document the discrimination?

Tom




--=20
The University of Westminster is a charity and a company limited by
guarantee. Registration number: 977818 England. Registered Office:
309 Regent Street, London W1B 2UW, UK.

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I am with Tom Archdeacon on this one: we need empirical evidence.

I agree too that was must be careful about mingling the American nd English
experiences, from an evidential point of view. We now have a literature on
'urban legends' and know how things that have a prima facie credibility
need to be treated circumspectly.

I have no doubt at all about the existence of 'No' signs and NINA
advertisements (cp 'No Catholics need apply' for posts in Dublin Protestant
businesses in former days), and the point is hardly worth supporting. If,
however, there is written or spoken some such a phrase as 'I remember signs
that read No Irish, No blacks, No dogs', the reference is not necessarily to
the same sign for all three: that was the point I was making. 'No Irish'
signs in such recollections become conflated with 'No dogs' signs as part of
the wound. That the wound was real is also clear enough; but we need to
unpack its constituents before passing on the received idea, especially if
we are to make the further assumption (which seems to be invited), that
landladies equivalenced Irish people and dogs. There is also a sensitive
area that we can allude to, Irish people resenting being equivalenced to
black people.

It would also be helpful to know if in Scotland tales are told of English
(or Welsh) landladies (e.g. during the 1930s) putting up 'No Scots' signs.
And to take other periods of influx. were there 'No Polish' signs after 1945
or 'No Hungarians' after 1956?

I do myself remember 'Yanks Go Home' graffiti, but that I think was a
different issue.

Thank heavens for the Race Relations Acts.

*David*

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From: "Morgan, John Matthew"
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T. Archdeacon's citation of "servicemen and dogs" signs suggests the =
doubtful nature of threse legends. I get biographical essays all the =
time in which students, almost always male, recount how their =
subject--uncle, father, whatever--was spat upon at a US airport on his =
return from Viet Nam. I was in uniform at many airports at the time and =
the accounts are nonsense. I have also had more than one Vietnam vet or =
alleged same tell me it happened to them. Nonsense.=20
=20
Jack Morgan=20

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From: "Sean Campbell"
To: "The Irish Diaspora Studies List"

It might be worth noting that Phil Lynott - like John Lydon - was born in
England. (Lynott was born in Birmingham to an Irish mother and a Brazilian
father, before moving to Dublin). Lydon was raised in an Irish family in
north London, where he experienced overt anti-Irish prejudice, and
befriended second-generation Jamaicans such as Don Letts, who supplied the
title of Lydon's autobiography.

I discuss this issue briefly in 'Sounding Out the Margins' in Smyth and
Norquay (eds), Across the Margins (Manchester, 2002).

Best wishes,
Sean Campbell.

----- Original Message -----
From: "micheal.ohaodha"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: [IR-D] No Dogs


For more discussions of "No Blacks, No Irish" - See biographies of Irish
singers - such as Phil Lynnott and Johnny Lydon (Sex Pistols).

Although she was a qualified nurse and working at a hospital in England
Phil Lynnott's mother had difficulty getting lodgings there because she
was Irish, pregnant and the father of her child was black - in fact -
(if I recall rightly) - she found the situation so intolerant at the
time that she actually came back to Ireland to have Phil (born in 1949)-
which Phil often said in interviews was the best "career move" he ever
made - given that he now had the exotic "aura" of being one of the first
Irish stars who was both black and Irish

Best
Micheal Hayes
Department of History
University of Limerick

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Marion Casey
Subject: Re: dogs
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Jerry Lembcke's very interesting 1998 book "The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam" explores this in detail, determining that "the idea that anti-war people spat on Vietnam veterans has its origins in Nixon's haranguing of war protesters for their disloyalty to the troops." Lembcke marshals a lot of convincing evidence to support this statement but, more importantly for our list, he goes on to explore how such a myth became so widely accepted.

While Jack Morgan says "nonsense" to it all, I will just insert Irish where Lembcke's conclusion (p. 188) used Vietnam:

"Reclaiming our memory of the Irish entails a struggle against very powerful institutional forces that toy with our imaginings of the Irish for reasons of monetary, political, or professional gain. It is a struggle for our individual and collective identities that calls us to reappropriate the making of our own memories. It is a struggle of epic importance."

Lembcke challenges the myth of the spat-upon Vietnam veteran; we, on the other hand -- with evidence of "No Irish" ads and signs available on both sides of the Atlantic, for both the 19th and 20th centuries -- must challenge would-be MYTH-MAKERS like Richard Jensen in order to, as Lembcke writes, reclaim "our role in the writing of history, the construction of our own memory, and the making of our own identity."

Marion R. Casey
Glucksman Ireland House
New York University

----- Original Message -----
From: "Morgan, John Matthew"
Date: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 2:35 pm
Subject: [IR-D] dogs
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK


> T. Archdeacon's citation of "servicemen and dogs" signs suggests the
> doubtful nature of threse legends. I get biographical essays all the
> time in which students, almost always male, recount how their
> subject--uncle, father, whatever--was spat upon at a US airport on his
> return from Viet Nam. I was in uniform at many airports at the time
> and the accounts are nonsense. I have also had more than one Vietnam
> vet or alleged same tell me it happened to them. Nonsense.
>
> Jack Morgan
>