Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Dr Donal Lowry
Subject: Re: Diasporic dissent
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Speaking personally, even though I was born in a republic and have no
legal obligation to the Queen of the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand
etc, I must confess to am instinctive loathing of the various attempts at
salami-slicing the oaths of allegiance of Canadians, Australians, New
Zealanders, towards Elizabeth II, in her various constitutional personae.
If republicans win a referendum in one or other of the members of the
Commonwealth that is ok, but they should not try to do this by stealth, by
testing monarchical oaths here and removing a royal portait there. For
example, the New Zealand republicans, not exact;y the most popular of
groups, have been complaining that neither the queen, as head of state,
nor any member of her family attended yesterday's funeral service for Sir
Edmund Hillary. They cannot have it both ways. As protocol dictates, she
was represented by the governor-general of New Zealand, for all practical
purposes head of state. Had the queen attended, she would have been blamed
for intervening in an internal New Zealand affair - damned if you do,
damned if you don't. Even if such Commonwealth monarchies in the
twenty-first century appear to be anomolous, republicans should still win
such issues/referenda fair and square. As it is (and Australia is a case
in point), repubicans only undermine dishonestly the sybolis elements of
the state, without offering anything stable or honest in their stead.

Donal





SD






> An interesting story, and case study in diasporic identity. I wonder what
> generation he is? Also, he appears to have run away to join the army at
> 16 in
> order to become a physics professor.
>
>
> Captain of Irish descent objected to drinking to 'an unelected monarch of
> foreign origin'
>
> TU THANH HA
>
> From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
>
> January 22, 2008 at 4:03 AM EST
>



> Outward displays of loyalty


to the Queen are fundamental to Canadian
> military
> discipline, a judge has ruled, rejecting the complaint of an army officer
> of
> Irish ancestry who objected to toasting "an unelected monarch of foreign
> origin."
>
> Captain Aralt Mac Giolla Chainnigh has campaigned for years to be excused
> from
> regimental dinner traditions such as toasting the Queen, saluting the
> Union
> Jack or singing God Save the Queen.
>
> However, in a 28-page ruling released yesterday, Mr. Justice Robert Barnes
> of
> the Federal Court said confusion would ensue if members of the military
> could
> opt out of various protocol requirements.
>
> "A chaotic and unworkable situation would arise in such an environment."
>
> The ruling was the latest setback for Capt. Mac Giolla Chainnigh, who told
> the
> court that "he has throughout his military career consistently expressed
> his
> disaffection for the British monarchy."
>
> In an interview yesterday, Capt. Mac Giolla Chainnigh, said that Canada,
> as asovereign democracy, cannot be at the same time be beholden to a
foreign
> queen.
> "It's a logical impossibility," he said.
>
> He referred to the Queen as "Elizabeth Windsor."
>
> In his judgment, Judge Barnes wrote that the Chief of the Defence Staff,
> General
> Rick Hillier, was right when he decided in August, 2006, to support a
> grievance
> board ruling that rejected the captain's claims.
>
> "Whether Capt. Mac Giolla Chainnigh likes it or not, the fact is that the
> Queen
> is his Commander-in-Chief and Canada's Head of State," Judge Barnes wrote.
>
> Refusing to display loyalty to the Queen, the judge added, "would not only
> be an
> expression of profound disrespect and rudeness, but it would also
> represent an
> unwillingness to adhere to hierarchical and lawful command structures that
> are
> fundamental to good discipline."
>
> Having represented himself in Federal Court, Capt. Mac Giolla Chainnigh
> said he
> cannot afford the professional counsel needed for an appeal. He is hoping
> republican groups might pick up his cause.
>
> Capt. Mac Giolla Chainnigh, who legally changed his name from Harold Kenny
> to
> the Gaelic version, is an associate professor of physics at Royal Military
> College in Kingston, and a member of the Princess Patricia's Canadian
> Light
> Infantry.
>
> He has long been active in promoting Irish culture in Canada. His office
> voicemail answers in Irish Gaelic and he is president of the North
> American
> Association for Celtic Language Teachers.
>
> Asked whether his background might have informed his views on the
> monarchy, he
> said he didn't want to mix culture and politics.However, he added that
> "Ireland, like most countries that have been colonized and suffered the
> scourges of imperialism, understands perhaps a little bit better than
> other
> nations what the extremely negative aspects are of a government that's not
> responsible to the people."
>
> When he enrolled at the age of 16 in 1975, Capt. Mac Giolla Chainnigh had
> been
> reluctant to take the required oath of allegiance to the Queen and said he
> proceeded only after being told that it was simply "a figurative way" of
> pledging his loyalty to the people of Canada.
>
> "I recognize loyalty to the people of Canada alone. I could drink a toast
> to
> Elizabeth as a person - if I knew her," the captain told the court. "I
> could
> drink a toast to her as the head of state of the United Kingdom, in
> respect for
> visitors from that country. But I cannot in good faith toast her as the
> Queen of
> Canada."
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Matthew Barlow
Subject: Re: Diasporic dissent 2
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In this case, the Princess Patricia's Light Infantry stand for "God Save the
Queen" because of the royal patronage of the unit. It is not our national
anthemn ("Oh Canada"), but it is traditional. Whether one wishes Canada to
be a republic or not, whatever one's views, if you are serving in the
Canadian military, which is a branch of the state, one must swear allegiance
to the Queen, as the head of state in Canada. The military, in any country,
is a staunchly conversative body, and the Canadian military is no different,
traditions are respected.

So it's not about singing the English anthemn (they also stand for "Oh
Canada"), it's traditional.

Outside of the military, I don't think that "God Save the Queen" is very
well received here in Canada. In fact, I cannot recall hearing it in any
public venue, though the chair of my department, who grew up in the 50s,
recalls having to sing "God Save the King" in his elementary school. But
that's over half a century ago.

Matthew



>
>
> 2008/1/23, Patrick O'Sullivan :
> >
> > From: "Muiris Mag Ualghairg"
> > To: "The Irish Diaspora Studies List"
> > Subject: Re: [IR-D] Diasporic dissent
> >
> > However, why should the officer in Canada be expected to stand for God
> > Save the Queen - the UK (and internally the English) National Anthem?
> > Is it the anthem of Canada? I don't think that the UK Army sings the
> > Canadian national anthem other than perhaps when there are Canadian
> > officers present.
> >
> > I should also add that God Save the Queen is not very popular in Wales
> > either, with it being booed at times during football matches (where it
> > is treated as the English national anthem), and it is generally
> > avoided as far as possible in social occasions that I have attended.
> >
> > Muiris
> >
>
>
>
> --
> _______________________________________________________
> "There's a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." --
> Leonard Cohen




--
_______________________________________________________
"There's a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." -- Leonard
Cohen

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick Maume
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From: patrick Maume
My understanding is that Nathan was killed in the Spanish Civil War, so it
is unlikely that he was interviewed by Bennett.
My understanding is that he was "interviewed" on this matter by some IRA
men serving in the International Brigade who threatened to shoot him, and
that he admitted it but persuaded them that it was water under the bridge
and they were all on the same side now. I can't remember my source - it
might be Sean Cronin's FRANK RYAN, Michael O'Riordan's CONNOLLY COLUMN, or
one of the more recent works on Ireland and the Spanish Civil War
Best wishes,
Patrick

On Jan 22, 2008 3:12 PM, Patrick O'Sullivan
wrote:

> From: phart[at]mun.ca
> To: The Irish Diaspora Studies List ,
> "MacEinri, Piaras"
>
> I don't suppose there has to be an ideological or moral contradiction or
> reversal there, though. Some people just enjoy that kind of thing.
>
> Was Nathan interviewed by Richard Bennett for his Tans book? How do we
> know
> about his time in Limerick? I'm wondering if it connects to other
> information I have, from an anonymous interviewee.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Peter
>
> Quoting "MacEinri, Piaras" :
>
> > I agree that it would be well worthwhile to trace the careers of former
> Tans
> > and Auxies (leaving aside whether they were 'terrorists' or not!!)
> >
> > Some became reformed characters. One fascinating case is that of George
> > Nathan, whose path took him from the Black and Tans to the republican
> forces
> > in the Spanish Civil War, where he commanded troops including some of
> his
> > Irish former adversaries. A very brave man who was killed in the battle
> of
> > Brunete, he rose to the highest positions of command in the
> International
> > Brigades yet he may have been involved in some extremely murky matters
> in
> > Limerick twenty years earlier.
> >
> > Piaras
> >
>

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Well to add another layer on that... This discussion sounds very funny to a=
Quebecker like me, coming from a wholly francophone (and pretty separatist=
) city between Montreal and Quebec since I can perfectly recall some of my =
uncles booing the "=D4 Canada" and not standing when this anthem was being =
played (let say, in a hockey arena)... because the "=D4 Canada" was by that=
time (after the rising of separatism in the late 1960s), at least for them=
, synonymous of English-Canadian federalism.=20
=20
So no wonder that I never ever heard the "God Save the Queen" in my childho=
od! This anthem was way to odd to even be played in my home town. I would e=
ven guess that nearly nobody in my hometown would recognize this anthem if =
it was being played in 2008... =20
=20
But to be fair, even if some prefer for instance "Gens du Pays" as their na=
tional anthem (a song that separatists generally prefer), there is still a =
lot of Quebeckers who still see the "=D4 Canada" as their national anthem.
=20
Simon Jolivet
Concordia University
> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:20:00 +0000> From: P.OSullivan[at]BRADFORD.AC.UK> =
Subject: [IR-D] Diasporic dissent 3> To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK> > From: Olive=
r Marshall > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:41:=
19 +0000> To: The Irish Diaspora Studies List > Subjec=
t: Re: [IR-D] Diasporic dissent 2> > I can clearly recall having to sing "G=
od Save the Queen" in the mid/late 19=3D> 60s in the elementary school that=
I attended in what was then an almost com=3D> pletely Anglophone part of M=
ontreal. As perhaps a subconscious provocation,=3D> at least once a week we=
'd also mumble our way through "Dieu prot=3DE8ge la r=3D> eine" -- the anth=
em's French-language version. Along with English and Frenc=3D> h versions o=
f "O Canada", assemblies sometimes seemed to last forever. I ca=3D> n't rec=
all any anthem in high school in the early 1970s, but of course Que=3D> bec=
was then on the cusp of major political and demographic change.=3D20> > So=
meone on the list was wondering how far back Captain Chainnigh's Irish li=
=3D> nks go. He claims descent from someone who arrived in Ontario from Sli=
go in=3D> 1820 -- it appears that he's a keen genealogist of the kind obses=
sed by th=3D> e paternal-line and DNA testing.> > Oliver Marshall
_________________________________________________________________

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From: "Patrick Maume"
To: "The Irish Diaspora Studies List"
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Diasporic dissent

From: Patrick Maume
In relation to this subject, the list might like to take note of the current
controversy in Limavady (Co. Londonderry). Sinn Fein, which is the largest
group on the district council, has been calling for the removal of various
items from council property which they regard as linked exclusively to the
unionist/Protestant tradition and therefore divisive. Most of these are
items of memorabilia presented to the council (which was Unionist-controlled
until fairly recently) by British regiments stationed in the area, but they
also include a statue of WF Massey, former Prime Minister of New Zealand,
who was born in the Limavady area and emigrated to New Zealand at the age of
14, on the grounds that he was an Orangeman. It has been widely claimed
that the Sinn Fein councillors did an Internet search for Massey in order to
decide whether or not to be offended by the statue.
Perhaps any New Zealanders on the list might like to weigh in on this
one. My own view is that whatever may be thought of Massey's political
record (which included the use of the military to break strikes and making
anti-Catholic speeches; he was also a British Israelite) he was a
significant historical figure with clear links to the area and the statue
ought to be allowed to remain on that basis; furthermore, the fact that
people in the area at one time wished to comemorate him is something that
ought not to be written out of history. (I would extend the same logic to
the statue of John Nicholson in Lisburn - someone who was unquestionably
guilty of mass murder while enforcing British rule over India, see William
Dalrymple's THE LAST MOGUL for details - and I would also oppose any
suggestion that John Mitchel's statue in Newry should be removed because of
his advocacy of racism and slavery. The addition of a simple plaque listing
their demerits would be much better than pretending that these people and
their admirers never existed.)
For the story see
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/politics/39Hypocrisy39-of-Sinn-Fein-councillors3
9.3696336.jp
This is not the only item the BELFAST NEWSLETTER (which is of course an
Unionist paper) has published on the controversy, and I believe the
London DAILY TELEGRAPH has also taken it up.
Donal - the impression I get from newspaper coverage of Sir Edmund Hillary's
funeral is that it is not just New Zealand republicans who are offended by
the failure of the Royal Family to send a member. It has been widely
recalled that when the announcement of the ascent of Everest coincided with
the Queen's coronation, it was hailed as a great British/Imperial
achievement and the dawn of that now long-forgotten fantasy, the "new
Elizabethan age". Even granted that the Governor-General represents the
Queen as head of state, she could send a family member to represent her in
some other capacity, such as Sovereign of the Knights of the Garter.
I would agree that Captain MacGiolla Chainnigh is over the top. He is not
just saying that Canada should be a republic (a view which I support), but
that he should be entitled to unilaterally repudiate the Canadian Head of
State irrespective of Canadian law and/or the opinions of other Canadians,
or even that Canadians are not entitled to have a monarchy even if they so
desire. I don't see how such a view is compatible with service in the
Canadian armed forces. (In the same way, someone who believes monarchy to
be the best form of government can legitimately serve in the armed forces of
a republic, but I don't see how a legitimist - someone who believes it to be
the only acceptable form of government - could do so).

Patrick Maume

On Jan 23, 2008 1:32 AM, Dr Donal Lowry wrote:

> Speaking personally, even though I was born in a republic and have no
> legal obligation to the Queen of the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand
> etc, I must confess to am instinctive loathing of the various attempts at
> salami-slicing the oaths of allegiance of Canadians, Australians, New
> Zealanders, towards Elizabeth II, in her various constitutional personae.
> If republicans win a referendum in one or other of the members of the
> Commonwealth that is ok, but they should not try to do this by stealth, by
> testing monarchical oaths here and removing a royal portait there. For
> example, the New Zealand republicans, not exact;y the most popular of
> groups, have been complaining that neither the queen, as head of state,
> nor any member of her family attended yesterday's funeral service for Sir
> Edmund Hillary. They cannot have it both ways. As protocol dictates, she
> was represented by the governor-general of New Zealand, for all practical
> purposes head of state. Had the queen attended, she would have been blamed
> for intervening in an internal New Zealand affair - damned if you do,
> damned if you don't. Even if such Commonwealth monarchies in the
> twenty-first century appear to be anomolous, republicans should still win
> such issues/referenda fair and square. As it is (and Australia is a case
> in point), repubicans only undermine dishonestly the sybolis elements of
> the state, without offering anything stable or honest in their stead.
>
> Donal
>
>
>

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From: "Muiris Mag Ualghairg"
To: "The Irish Diaspora Studies List"
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Diasporic dissent

However, why should the officer in Canada be expected to stand for God
Save the Queen - the UK (and internally the English) National Anthem?
Is it the anthem of Canada? I don't think that the UK Army sings the
Canadian national anthem other than perhaps when there are Canadian
officers present.

I should also add that God Save the Queen is not very popular in Wales
either, with it being booed at times during football matches (where it
is treated as the English national anthem), and it is generally
avoided as far as possible in social occasions that I have attended.

Muiris

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
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God Save the Queen was the national anthem of Canada until 1967, when Calix=
a Lavall=E9e's popular song O Canada was adopted albeit with different word=
s. The adoption of the new anthem was in part a response to Quebec's 'Quiet=
Revolution' of the 1960s, a period which saw the re-emergence of French-Ca=
nadian nationalism in federal politics. Arguably in a bid to assuage Quebec=
nationalists but at the same time resist Americanisation, many of the Brit=
ish symbols were discarded at this time and a new flag (1965) which bore no=
resemblance to the Union Jack , a new anthem (1967) and new Official Langu=
ages Act (1969) followed soon after the Royal Commission on Bilingual and B=
iculturalism (est. 1963; four reports issued between 1965-70). The irony wa=
s, of course, that Lavall=E9e's O Canada, was already well-known in French =
Canada by its original title 'Chant national' and had been composed as a pa=
triotic f-c nationalist hymn in honour of the Congr=E8s national des canadi=
ens-fran=E7ais, first performed on 'la St-Jean Baptiste' (24 June 1880), th=
e national holiday of Quebec. It would appear, however, that the irony was =
lost on English Canada who didn't get the reference!

God Save the Queen is now officially called the "Royal Anthem of Canada" an=
d is occasionally performed following O Canada at certain ceremonial events=
, depending obviously on local jurisdiction.

Johanne

Johanne Devlin Trew, PhD
AHRC Research Fellow
Centre for Migration Studies &
School of History and Anthropology
Queen's University Belfast
j.trew[at]qub.ac.uk
tel: 028-8225-6315
________________________________________
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [IR-D[at]jiscmail.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Pa=
trick O'Sullivan [P.OSullivan[at]bradford.ac.uk]
Sent: 23 January 2008 12:12
To: IR-D[at]jiscmail.ac.uk
Subject: [IR-D] Diasporic dissent 2

From: "Muiris Mag Ualghairg"
To: "The Irish Diaspora Studies List"
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Diasporic dissent

However, why should the officer in Canada be expected to stand for God
Save the Queen - the UK (and internally the English) National Anthem?
Is it the anthem of Canada? I don't think that the UK Army sings the
Canadian national anthem other than perhaps when there are Canadian
officers present.

I should also add that God Save the Queen is not very popular in Wales
either, with it being booed at times during football matches (where it
is treated as the English national anthem), and it is generally
avoided as far as possible in social occasions that I have attended.

Muiris

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Donal Lowry
Organization: Oxford Brookes University
Subject: Re: Diasporic dissent 2
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Dear Muiris,

According to protocol, civilian and military, whatever one might think
of it, `God Save the Queen/Dieu Garde la Reine' remains the offical
royal anthem of Canada, alongside `O Canada' (rather than the UK anthem
in Canada (as it is in Australia (alongside `Advance Australia Fair'),
and as such is sung in Canada whenever the sovereign is personally
present. As an official state anthem, rather than a `foreign British
one', it remains foremost in the official musical repetoire of Canadian
military bands (and Australian ones too). Besides, Canadian military
officers (including General John de Chastelain!) take an oath to the
Canadian sovereign, as Australian officers do to the Australian
sovereign, not to transitory prime ministers, and their regiments not
infrequently have royal prefixes. The last generally are keenly prized,
and one of the more controversial aspects of the Australian republican
convention in 1997 arose when it was pointed out that becoming a
republic would involve the loss of such titles from the armed services
(though not from learned bodies, as in Ireland's case, post-1949), a
move which, surprisingly perhaps, along with flag change, is not so
popular among Australian republicans. How long such symbolic metaphysics
survives remains to be seen.

As regards the Welsh and English attitudes towards it, the issue doesn't
affect me but it seems incredibly arrogant of the English to monopolise
the anthem of the entire UK as though it was their own. No wonder the
Welsh boo!

Best wishes,
Donal


Patrick O'Sullivan wrote:

>From: "Muiris Mag Ualghairg"
>To: "The Irish Diaspora Studies List"
>Subject: Re: [IR-D] Diasporic dissent
>
>However, why should the officer in Canada be expected to stand for God
>Save the Queen - the UK (and internally the English) National Anthem?
>Is it the anthem of Canada? I don't think that the UK Army sings the
>Canadian national anthem other than perhaps when there are Canadian
>officers present.
>
>I should also add that God Save the Queen is not very popular in Wales
>either, with it being booed at times during football matches (where it
>is treated as the English national anthem), and it is generally
>avoided as far as possible in social occasions that I have attended.
>
>Muiris
>
>

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From: Oliver Marshall
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:41:19 +0000
To: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Diasporic dissent 2

I can clearly recall having to sing "God Save the Queen" in the mid/late 19=
60s in the elementary school that I attended in what was then an almost com=
pletely Anglophone part of Montreal. As perhaps a subconscious provocation,=
at least once a week we'd also mumble our way through "Dieu prot=E8ge la r=
eine" -- the anthem's French-language version. Along with English and Frenc=
h versions of "O Canada", assemblies sometimes seemed to last forever. I ca=
n't recall any anthem in high school in the early 1970s, but of course Que=
bec was then on the cusp of major political and demographic change.=20

Someone on the list was wondering how far back Captain Chainnigh's Irish li=
nks go. He claims descent from someone who arrived in Ontario from Sligo in=
1820 -- it appears that he's a keen genealogist of the kind obsessed by th=
e paternal-line and DNA testing.

Oliver Marshall

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Donal Lowry
Organization: Oxford Brookes University
Subject: Re: Diasporic dissent 3
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Dear Oliver,

You probably know that - probably to be difficult - the University of
Western Ontario formally restored God Save the Queen at its graduation
ceremonies a few years ago.

Best wishes,
Donal

Patrick O'Sullivan wrote:

>From: Oliver Marshall
>Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:41:19 +0000
>To: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
>Subject: Re: [IR-D] Diasporic dissent 2
>
>I can clearly recall having to sing "God Save the Queen" in the mid/late 19=
>60s in the elementary school that I attended in what was then an almost com=
>pletely Anglophone part of Montreal. As perhaps a subconscious provocation,=
> at least once a week we'd also mumble our way through "Dieu prot=E8ge la r=
>eine" -- the anthem's French-language version. Along with English and Frenc=
>h versions of "O Canada", assemblies sometimes seemed to last forever. I ca=
>n't recall any anthem in high school in the early 1970s, but of course Que=
>bec was then on the cusp of major political and demographic change.=20
>
>Someone on the list was wondering how far back Captain Chainnigh's Irish li=
>nks go. He claims descent from someone who arrived in Ontario from Sligo in=
> 1820 -- it appears that he's a keen genealogist of the kind obsessed by th=
>e paternal-line and DNA testing.
>
>Oliver Marshall
>
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Muiris Mag Ualghairg
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I didn't know that 'God Save the Queen/Dieu Gared la Reine' were
official royal anthems of Canada. I am surprised by this as God Save
the Queen is the recognised anthem of the United Kingdom (and
internally of England). I don't think the fact that militiary officers
swear alligience to the Queen as Sovereign of Canda is so relevant (to
my question) as who is the Canadian head of state is an internal
matter for Canada, nor am I too upset about this, my point is why
should one country's armed forces be expected to show respect to
another country's anthem (apart from when the have guests from the
other country present)?

This raises a hisotrical question, does anyone know what the situation
was in the Freestate? Did the military sing God Save the King as part
of mess rituals or did they just ignore that anthem all together?

Muiris

On 23/01/2008, Donal Lowry wrote:
> Dear Muiris,
>
> According to protocol, civilian and military, whatever one might think
> of it, `God Save the Queen/Dieu Garde la Reine' remains the offical
> royal anthem of Canada, alongside `O Canada' (rather than the UK anthem
> in Canada (as it is in Australia (alongside `Advance Australia Fair'),
> and as such is sung in Canada whenever the sovereign is personally
> present. As an official state anthem, rather than a `foreign British
> one', it remains foremost in the official musical repetoire of Canadian
> military bands (and Australian ones too). Besides, Canadian military
> officers (including General John de Chastelain!) take an oath to the
> Canadian sovereign, as Australian officers do to the Australian
> sovereign, not to transitory prime ministers, and their regiments not
> infrequently have royal prefixes. The last generally are keenly prized,
> and one of the more controversial aspects of the Australian republican
> convention in 1997 arose when it was pointed out that becoming a
> republic would involve the loss of such titles from the armed services
> (though not from learned bodies, as in Ireland's case, post-1949), a
> move which, surprisingly perhaps, along with flag change, is not so
> popular among Australian republicans. How long such symbolic metaphysics
> survives remains to be seen.
>
> As regards the Welsh and English attitudes towards it, the issue doesn't
> affect me but it seems incredibly arrogant of the English to monopolise
> the anthem of the entire UK as though it was their own. No wonder the
> Welsh boo!
>
> Best wishes,
> Donal
>
>
> Patrick O'Sullivan wrote:
>
> >From: "Muiris Mag Ualghairg"
> >To: "The Irish Diaspora Studies List"
> >Subject: Re: [IR-D] Diasporic dissent
> >
> >However, why should the officer in Canada be expected to stand for God
> >Save the Queen - the UK (and internally the English) National Anthem?
> >Is it the anthem of Canada? I don't think that the UK Army sings the
> >Canadian national anthem other than perhaps when there are Canadian
> >officers present.
> >
> >I should also add that God Save the Queen is not very popular in Wales
> >either, with it being booed at times during football matches (where it
> >is treated as the English national anthem), and it is generally
> >avoided as far as possible in social occasions that I have attended.
> >
> >Muiris
> >
> >
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Muiris Mag Ualghairg
Subject: Re: Diasporic dissent 3
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One slight correction its Captain Mac Giolla Chainnigh - the first
part of his surname 'Mac Giolla' is still part of his surname, and in
respect of his 'obsession' with genealogy he seems to share something
in common with the Royal Family as they, after all, only hold their
positions because of their 'genealogy' and not by merit!

> Someone on the list was wondering how far back Captain Chainnigh's Irish li=
> nks go. He claims descent from someone who arrived in Ontario from Sligo in=
> 1820 -- it appears that he's a keen genealogist of the kind obsessed by th=
> e paternal-line and DNA testing.

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From: Donal Lowry
To: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Diasporic dissent 2

Dear Muiris,

I appreciate your point of view. I am not defending the system or
advocating another, but describing it. The issue of singing another
country's national anthem becomes an issue only when it is perceived to
be "another country's" In the past, and this of course may change, it
was not perceived to be so, but the possession of Canada as well. In
protocol terms, is a Canadian anthem, as well as a British one.

The Free State army will not have stood for God Save the King as a
national anthem because the IFS did not adopt it. The dominion symbols
of the IFS were minimal, so much so that the government forbade the
Governor-General attending Trinity College Dublin if the Union Jack were
flown and the royal anthem sung. Canada, in contrast, despite a relative
watering down by Trudeau, remains to the outsider saturated in British
symbolism, from its gothic "House of Commons", complete with Black Rod,
through the union flags incorporated in several provincial flags,
including Ontario, to the royal prefixes on regiments and naval ships -
HMCS - etc - Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, Princess
Louises Own ... The Seaforth Highlanders of Canada (the parent regiment
long disbanded here!).

Best wishes,
Donal

Muiris Mag Ualghairg wrote:

>I didn't know that 'God Save the Queen/Dieu Gared la Reine' were
>official royal anthems of Canada. I am surprised by this as God Save
>the Queen is the recognised anthem of the United Kingdom (and
>internally of England). I don't think the fact that militiary officers
>swear alligience to the Queen as Sovereign of Canda is so relevant (to
>my question) as who is the Canadian head of state is an internal
>matter for Canada, nor am I too upset about this, my point is why
>should one country's armed forces be expected to show respect to
>another country's anthem (apart from when the have guests from the
>other country present)?
>
>This raises a hisotrical question, does anyone know what the situation
>was in the Freestate? Did the military sing God Save the King as part
>of mess rituals or did they just ignore that anthem all together?
>
>Muiris
>

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From: "Rogers, James "
To: "'The Irish Diaspora Studies List'"


Tangential to this, see Gillian McIntosh, "CEMA and the National Anthem: The
Arts and the State in Postwar Northern Ireland ," in New Hibernia Review 5,3
(Autumn 2001), 22-31 -- concerning the playing of the national anthem at
events sponsored by the forerunner of the Arts Council of NI.

-----Original Message-----
From: Muiris Mag Ualghairg [mailto:welshtranslator[at]GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 11:13 AM
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Diasporic dissent 2

I didn't know that 'God Save the Queen/Dieu Gared la Reine' were
official royal anthems of Canada. I am surprised by this as God Save
the Queen is the recognised anthem of the United Kingdom (and
internally of England). I don't think the fact that militiary officers
swear alligience to the Queen as Sovereign of Canda is so relevant (to
my question) as who is the Canadian head of state is an internal
matter for Canada, nor am I too upset about this, my point is why
should one country's armed forces be expected to show respect to
another country's anthem (apart from when the have guests from the
other country present)?

This raises a hisotrical question, does anyone know what the situation
was in the Freestate? Did the military sing God Save the King as part
of mess rituals or did they just ignore that anthem all together?

Muiris

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From: phart[at]mun.ca
To: The Irish Diaspora Studies List ,
Matthew Barlow
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Diasporic dissent 2

At our (formerly Anglican) elementary school we sang 'O Canada' I think,
never 'God Save', but definitely the Newfoundland national anthem, 'God
Guard Thee Newfoundland'.

All part of our vertical mosiac.

Peter

Quoting Matthew

Barlow :

> In this case, the Princess Patricia's Light Infantry stand for "God Save
the
> Queen" because of the royal patronage of the unit. It is not our national
> anthemn ("Oh Canada"), but it is traditional. Whether one wishes Canada
to
> be a republic or not, whatever one's views, if you are serving in the
> Canadian military, which is a branch of the state, one must swear
allegiance
> to the Queen, as the head of state in Canada. The military, in any
country,
> is a staunchly conversative body, and the Canadian military is no
different,
> traditions are respected.
>
> So it's not about singing the English anthemn (they also stand for "Oh
> Canada"), it's traditional.
>
> Outside of the military, I don't think that "God Save the Queen" is very
> well received here in Canada. In fact, I cannot recall hearing it in any
> public venue, though the chair of my department, who grew up in the 50s,
> recalls having to sing "God Save the King" in his elementary school. But
> that's over half a century ago.
>
> Matthew
>

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I can remember an incident in my Grade 8 class in Ottawa in 1958 when
the music teacher cricised our singing of "O Canada" and ordered us to "
get it right this time". Whereupon the class sang it in its original
French, even though the school was definitely in an Anglophone area of
the city. An example of how a mode of dissent originating in one context
(in this case ethnic minority) can be utilised by another?

Russell Murray

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Without wishing to be pedantic, Matthew, God Save the Queen is the royal
anthem of Canada, and no less officially so than O Canada is the national
anthem. THe PPCLI stand for God Save the Queen on that internally
Canadaian state basis, rather than the royal patronage of their individual
unit. The Seaforth Highlanders, which don't have a royal prefix, would
have to stand equally for it on an official occasion.

What is interesting perhaps about this question is not how much these
symobls hav declined but how much survive.

It would be interesting to know, apart from cussedness or misplaced
Anglophisia, why the University of Western Ontario recently successfuly
restored God Save the Queen to its graduation proceedings. While we are on
universities, you may recall that in the 1990s the University of Toronto
orchestra was half way through playing God Save the Queen in nonour of
President Mary Robinson, then receiving an honourary doctorate, before
realising their mistake!

Donal

> From: phart[at]mun.ca
> To: The Irish Diaspora Studies List ,
> Matthew Barlow
> Subject: Re: [IR-D] Diasporic dissent 2
>
> At our (formerly Anglican) elementary school we sang 'O Canada' I think,
> never 'God Save', but definitely the Newfoundland national anthem, 'God
> Guard Thee Newfoundland'.
>
> All part of our vertical mosiac.
>
> Peter
>
> Quoting Matthew
>
> Barlow :
>
>> In this case, the Princess Patricia's Light Infantry stand for "God Save
> the
>> Queen" because of the royal patronage of the unit. It is not our
>> national
>> anthemn ("Oh Canada"), but it is traditional. Whether one wishes Canada
> to
>> be a republic or not, whatever one's views, if you are serving in the
>> Canadian military, which is a branch of the state, one must swear
> allegiance
>> to the Queen, as the head of state in Canada. The military, in any
> country,
>> is a staunchly conversative body, and the Canadian military is no
> different,
>> traditions are respected.
>>
>> So it's not about singing the English anthemn (they also stand for "Oh
>> Canada"), it's traditional.
>>
>> Outside of the military, I don't think that "God Save the Queen" is very
>> well received here in Canada. In fact, I cannot recall hearing it in
>> any
>> public venue, though the chair of my department, who grew up in the 50s,
>> recalls having to sing "God Save the King" in his elementary school.
>> But
>> that's over half a century ago.
>>
>> Matthew
>>
>

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From: "Matthew Barlow"
To: "The Irish Diaspora Studies List"
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Diasporic dissent 4

This discussion is getting somewhat surreal from a Canadian point-of-view.
Of course there are remnants of British symbols in Canada, it was a British
colony until 1867 (or 1930, 1948, or 1982, depending on your
point-of-view). That there is a gothic Parliament House in Ottawa modelled
on Westminster should not be shocking. When it was built, Canada was one of
the proud and (sort-of) free-standing Dominions. That the crosses of the
various British Isles nations can be found on the flags of several provinces
is also not surprising, given who settled, and more importantly, controlled
the governments of, those provinces, in particular, Ontario. And royal
prefixes on Canadian naval ships are also not surprising, Canada is still
part of the Commonwealth, as such, Queen Elizabeth is still the Canadian
head of state. This is not a question of having allegiance to a foreign
head of state, either. Canada does not have the republican movement that
Australia does, for reasons that are pretty easy to figure out: Canada has
enough of a constitutional headache at any given time to get to het up about
this.

But either way, I fail to see how Canada is unique. Australia, despite its
large republican movement, also has royal prefixes attached to its naval
ships, and, as as been noted, its military stands at attention for "God Save
the Queen."

Matthew


2008/1/24, Patrick O'Sullivan :
>
> From: Donal Lowry
> To: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
> Subject: Re: [IR-D] Diasporic dissent 2
>
> Dear Muiris,
>
> I appreciate your point of view. I am not defending the system or
> advocating another, but describing it. The issue of singing another
> country's national anthem becomes an issue only when it is perceived to
> be "another country's" In the past, and this of course may change, it
> was not perceived to be so, but the possession of Canada as well. In
> protocol terms, is a Canadian anthem, as well as a British one.
>
> The Free State army will not have stood for God Save the King as a
> national anthem because the IFS did not adopt it. The dominion symbols
> of the IFS were minimal, so much so that the government forbade the
> Governor-General attending Trinity College Dublin if the Union Jack were
> flown and the royal anthem sung. Canada, in contrast, despite a relative
> watering down by Trudeau, remains to the outsider saturated in British
> symbolism, from its gothic "House of Commons", complete with Black Rod,
> through the union flags incorporated in several provincial flags,
> including Ontario, to the royal prefixes on regiments and naval ships -
> HMCS - etc - Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, Princess
> Louises Own ... The Seaforth Highlanders of Canada (the parent regiment
> long disbanded here!).
>
> Best wishes,
> Donal
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Muiris Mag Ualghairg
Subject: Banned words
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There is an interesting piece on the BBC website outlining the
terminology that the Police are not allowed to use

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7206891.stm

Police outlaw 'fenians and huns'

Terms used by DCI Gene Hunt in Life on Mars are outlawed
Fenian, hun, taig and jaffa are among the terms outlawed for police
officers in a pamphlet which outlines to them how to avoid causing
offence.
The Guide to Appropriate Language has various categories of words and
suggests acceptable alternatives.

Religion, minority ethnic communities, gay people, women and
transsexuals are among the linguistic issues covered.

Chief Constable Sir Hugh Orde says in his foreword that using the
right language "sends an important message".

"It is essential that we take a lead in using language that does not
exclude colleagues or members of the community, does not stereotype
and always shows a wholehearted commitment to supporting our Equal
Opportunities Policy," said Sir Hugh.

Catholics should not be called fenians, taigs, chucks or spongers,
while Protestants should not be referred to as huns, black, prods or
jaffas, the booklet says.

It is intended to help avoid the unintentional offence caused by
unthinking use of language and to improve relationships between
officers, staff and across the whole community

PSNI Guide to Appropriate Language
There is one exception to the use of fenian, but it is probably rarely used.

"It may be perfectly acceptable to use it in an appropriate historical
context, for example, if referring to the Fenian Brotherhood," it
says.

Officers are advised that if a witness uses language which is not
politically correct, they should use speech marks to attribute this
when taking a statement.

Terms which could be used by Life on Mars' 1970s old-school cop DCI
Gene Hunt are also banned when referring to the gay community.

When it comes to older members of the population, police should not
call them geriatric, old codgers or say someone is "just like an aul'
woman".

"Old can carry connotations of being worn-out and of little further
use. It can also be used as a term of abuse," says the booklet.

The booklet is "intended to help avoid the unintentional offence
caused by unthinking use of language and to improve relationships
between officers, staff and across the whole community".

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "MacEinri, Piaras"
Subject: Re: George Nathan, again
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My copy of Hugh Thomas=92 early and long-standard work on the Spanish =
Civil War has the following passage about George Nathan. As will be =
evident, the Irish background again depends on Bennett.=20

By this time, the British volunteers for the International Brigade had =
been numerous enough to permit of the formation of a full British =91No =
1 Company', 145 strong, now attached to the French, Marsellaise, =
Battalion of the newly organised 14th International Brigade, commanded =
by the Polish General =91Walter=92 (=8Awierczewski). These Anglo-Saxons =
were commanded by Captain George Nathan who, have risen to the rank of =
CSM during the First World War, had then become briefly an officer in =
the Brigade of Guards. He genuinely found himself as a leader in Spain =
=96 resourceful, brave as a lion, and respected by all. One section of =
the British was composed of Irishmen who had all, it was said =
=91experience of warfare in Ireland=92. Their chivalrous leader, Frank =
Ryan, had been a radical member of the Irish Republican Army (IRA) =
since 1918.=20

It adds the following footnote:

Nathan had been in Ireland in the early twenties. It seems that he as =
attached to the Black and Tans, and was a member of the so-called Dublin =
Castle Murder Gang. As such he was later identified as the murderer of =
the Lord Mayor and ex-Lord Mayor of Limerick (George Clancy and George =
O=92Callaghan) in March 1921 (see Richard Bennett=92s article in the New =
Statesman, 24 March 1961.=20

Thomas, H. (1977, 3rd edition). The Spanish Civil War. Harmondsworth: =
Penguin, pp.490-491.

Antony Beevor's more recent _The Battle for Spain_ mentions Nathan but =
not his Irish background. I do not have Robert Stradling's or Feargal =
McGarry's work to hand. Earlier works such as Michael O'Riordan's =
Connolly Column are hagiographical and unreliable.

Piaras