Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "Rogers, James"
Subject: The De Valera "Comely Maidens" speech of 1943
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Listers,

=20

Forgive me if this an obvious question, or one that has been well =
covered
elsewhere.=20

=20

What was the contemporary reaction to de Valera's famous 1943 St =
Patrick's
Day speech concerning "the Ireland we dreamed of..."

=20

In recent decades, it is all but impossible to find the speech taken
seriously; I don't think I have ever seen the speech referenced as =
anything
other than at best na=EFve, and often as a target for jeering. But how =
did it
play in 1943?

=20

Jim Rogers

UST Center for Irish Studies

=20

=20

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Edward Hagan
Subject: Re: Article,
Foreign Fields and Foreigners on the Field: Irish Sport,
Inclusion and Assimilation
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As I read this discussion of the GAA, I'm led to a tangent about the GAA
in New York in the 1940s, 50s, up until 1968 or so. Does anyone know why
the Irish born did not teach Gaelic games to the first generation
Irish-Americans? Years ago I had heard that there was an actual New York
GAA policy against doing so--something about the Irish-Americans needing
to assimilate. After 1968 all this changed and young Irish-Americans were
taught the Gaelic games. Now the change may simply have been related to
the virtual elimination of legal Irish immigration in the 1960s. The New
York clubs needed players, and they were no longer coming from Ireland.

I grew up in what was the largest Irish community in New York--Inwood in
Upper Manhattan. Both of my parents were Irish born, and virtually all of
my friends had Irish born parents. My father was a fanatic about Gaelic
football and took me to the games at Gaelic Park in the Bronx on many
Sundays, but he never showed me how to play the game. There were no teams
or opportunities to play for us. (The owner of Gaelic Park, btw, lived
in Inwood as did the long time PA announcer, Lefty Devine, and his kids
never played Gaelic sports.) I've always thought that this was most
strange. We were told to play baseball and basketball. (It is
interesting how many first generation Irish-Americans were really good
basketball players during that era.)

It's important to know that Gaelic Park was thriving during these years;
it was the scene of much Irish social life. And in 1968 (I think) a New
York select side beat the All-Ireland champion, so Gaelic football was
played at a high level in NYC.

I'm not sure how I'd begin to research this question, but I'd like to hear
suggestions. It's a most peculiar Diaspora issue.

Ed Hagan

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: Book review, James Murphy on Loughlin,
_The British Monarchy and Ireland, 1800 to the Present_
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H-NET BOOK REVIEW
Published by H-Albion[at]h-net.msu.edu (July 2008)

James Loughlin. _The British Monarchy and Ireland, 1800 to the
Present_. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2007. xv + 398 pp.
Index. $99.00 (cloth), ISBN 978-0-521-84372-0.

Reviewed for H-Albion by James H. Murphy, Department of English,
DePaul University

The topic of the relationship between Ireland and the British monarchy
in recent centuries is a most important one but has only recently
become the subject for sustained academic study. This may be because
it has been presumed to be a story of undying hostility towards the
monarchy by Irish nationalists and of devoted loyalty by Irish, and
latterly Ulster, Unionists. And yet at various times the visits of
George IV, Victoria, Edward VII and George V to southern, and
supposedly nationalist, Ireland, were met by the enthusiasm of
enormous crowds. It is the central challenge of any study of the topic
to explain both that enthusiasm and the visceral hatred of the
monarchy which at times has also been manifest in public and which
remains, even in these days of British-Irish amity, still present in
certain strata of Irish society. The most famous manifestation of such
hatred of course was in the demonization of Queen Victoria as the
"Famine Queen." It is a hatred, moreover, which is all the more
perplexing for it concerns an institution without any real political
power.

Professor James Loughlin's _The British Monarchy and Ireland 1800 to
the Present_ is the second major account of the topic in recent years,
the first, as he notes, being my own _Abject Loyalty: Nationalism and
Monarchy in Ireland during the Reign of Queen Victoria_ (2001).
Professor Loughlin is a highly regarded historian and author of a
number of important books on the Irish Home Rule movement during the
Gladstone era and on Ulster Unionism. Perhaps surprisingly, the
relationship between unionism and monarchy only really features in the
last seventy pages (chapters 14 and 15) of this 398-page work. This
part deals with the period after (southern) Irish independence and has
many illuminating insights, not least concerning the sympathy of
George V for Home Rule and the keen enthusiasm of the present monarch,
Elizabeth II, for Ulster Unionism, at least in the first part of her
reign.

The first thirteen chapters of Loughlin's book, though divided into
five sections, seem to me to fall into two parts in terms of scope and
style. Chapters 1 to 5, occupying the first third of the book, deal
with the period from the union of Ireland and Britain in 1801 to the
advent of Gladstone and travel along roughly similar lines to my own
work on the subject. Chapters 6 to 13, taking up half the book, cover
the period from Gladstone to Irish independence. It is here that
Loughlin's work really comes into its own and takes on its own special
slant. It becomes a meticulous and fascinating study of the
formulation and reformulation of British policy as it related to the
possible role of the monarchy in an overall solution to the Irish
question. For Loughlin Gladstone's premierships were the only time
during the union when a prime minister systematically planned to
combine Irish reforms with enthusiasm for the monarchy and to
translate them "into constitutional loyalty" (p. 166). Many of the
schemes debated by Gladstone and Lord Spencer, the Irish Lord
Lieutenant, for a role for the Prince of Wales in Ireland and for an
Irish royal residence never actually saw the light of day. Worse, when
attempting to calm the country during the second Gladstone government,
Spencer, as both royal and governmental representative in Ireland,
performed "a role emblematic of the integration of coercive and
monarchical symbolism" (p. 179). Loughlin follows these machinations
and those of subsequent Conservative and Liberal governments with
exacting detail, with a deep knowledge of the individuals involved and
a profound grasp of the political implications of what was happening.

Loughlin's book sets out to be both a political and a social history
of the role of the monarchy in Ireland. On the social side of the
issue, that is, an analysis of the popular reaction towards monarchy,
his work sustains an important thesis, that whereas nationalist
agitation was generally robustly successful, royal visits needed the
congruence of particularly favorable circumstances to succeed. Yet
Loughlin's social history of the topic is not quite as strong as his
political account and a sense of the intensity of feelings that the
monarchy generated is somewhat muted. Two issues stand out. The first
has to do with the great difficulty of interpreting the significance
of the public reaction to monarchy, whether enthusiastic or
antagonistic, at any particular moment. At times Professor Loughlin
interprets events and attitudes in perhaps too easy a manner. Thus
continuing to use royal post boxes, though painted green, suggests
"the absence of popular anti-monarchical feeling" (p. 320) in the
Irish Free State. Earlier on he dismisses any significant Catholic-
nationalist element in the positive reception that greeted the prince
and princess of Wales in Dublin during their 1885 visit (pp. 194-195).
He suggests that the enthusiasm was that merely of Dublin loyalists
and railway travelers from Protestant Belfast. It would have been
interesting had he quoted from oppositional nationalist newspapers in
support particularly of the latter point.

The second issue has to do with his model of popular and personal
politicization. He tells us in his conclusion that his approach in
accounting for "the contrast between great demonstrations of 'organic'
unity between the Irish people and royal personages as against
periodic mass nationalist agitation" has been to "abandon the notion
of one 'people' and think instead of multiple constituencies called
into existence by diverse issues and mobilisations" (p. 387). And,
indeed, his approach throughout is in terms of government and monarchy
negotiating alliances with a variety of politicized groupings at
particular times. Yet this approach downplays underlying trends which
were certainly moving in an antagonistic direction as far as monarchy
was concerned from the last third of the nineteenth century. It almost
leads, too, to suggestions that at times Irish support for monarchy
could be turned on or off depending on the political scheme on offer.
Thus "[h]ad the Home Rule bill of 1886 been enacted, the basic
conditions envisaged by Gladstone for the symbiotic development in
Ireland of loyalty to the monarchy and the British state together with
Irish nationality would have been established" (p. 217).

In my own view the problem of the paradoxical reactions of enthusiasm
and hostility to monarchy requires a view that sees not only a variety
of politicized groups jostling together but finds within the
individual varying degrees of politicization and non-politicization,
of seriousness and pleasure-seeking, of allegiance and counter-
allegiance, confusingly at work. Thus the individual who might go to a
nationalist Parnellite meeting of an evening might watch a royal
procession the next day because everyone loves to see a prince. It was
this surely that really perplexed and infuriated some nationalists
concerning the monarchy, particularly when celebrity-gazing was
portrayed as loyalty.

Professor Loughlin's book may not offer a complete view of all aspects
of his topic, but then that is an unrealistic expectation of any
author, no matter how good. What it does do superbly well, though, is
to give an account of the formulation of British policy towards
Ireland, and of the fate of attempts to implement that policy, as it
related to the role of the monarchy in any settlement of the "Irish
question."



Copyright (c) 2007 by H-Net, all rights reserved. H-Net permits
the redistribution and reprinting of this work for nonprofit,
educational purposes, with full and accurate attribution to the
author, web location, date of publication, originating list, and
H-Net: Humanities & Social Sciences Online. For other uses
contact the Reviews editorial staff: hbooks[at]mail.h-net.msu.edu.

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: CFP NEICN conference, 'Re-Imagining Ireland',
University of Sunderland, 14-16 November 2008
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From: Alison Younger [mailto:alison_younger[at]yahoo.co.uk]=20
=A0
On behalf of The North East Irish Cultural Network (NEICN)=20

NEICN Conference =96 Re-imagining Ireland

Following the success of its last five international conferences:
Representing-Ireland: Past, Present and Future, [2003] and The Word, The
Icon and The Ritual, [2004], Lands of Saints of Scholars, [2005], =
Ireland:
Renaissance, Revolution and Regeneration, (2006) and Ireland at War and
Peace the University of Sunderland, in association with NEICN, is =
soliciting
papers for an interdisciplinary conference under the theme of =
=91Re-Imagining
Ireland=92 which will run from 14-16 November 2008 at St Peter=92s =
Campus,
University of Sunderland, UK.

The conference organisers hope to represent a wide range of approaches =
to
Irish culture from academics and non-academics alike. Performances,
roundtables, collaborative projects, and other non-traditional =
presentations
are encouraged in addition to conference papers. We particularly welcome
proposals for panels. As with previous year=92s conference, we welcome
submissions for panels and papers under the thematic headings of:
Re-Imagining Ireland in the following areas: Literature, Performing =
Arts,
History, Politics, Folklore and Mythology, Ireland in Theory, Gender and
Ireland Anthropology, Sociology, Geography, Tourism, Art and Art =
History,
Music, Dance, Media and Film Studies, Cultural Studies, and Studies of =
the
Diaspora. North American and other international scholars, practitioners =
in
the arts, and postgraduate students are all encouraged to submit =
proposals
to the conference organisers. We also welcome proposals for papers in
absentia for delegates who wish to participate but may find it difficult =
to
attend the event.

LENGTH =96 Papers should not exceed 2,500 =96 3,000 words/20 minutes=92 =
delivery

DEADLINES =96 Enquiries and submissions should be submitted by 30th =
July, 2008
to the conference coordinators:

Dr Alison O=92Malley-Younger =96 alison.younger[at]sunderland.ac.uk and =
Professor
John Strachan =96 john.strachan[at]sunderland.ac.uk and copied to the =
conference
administrator, Ms Sue Cottam on susan.cottam[at]sunderland.ac.uk=20
=A0
Slan agus beannacht
www.neicn.com
=A0
Alison O'Malley-Younger [Dr]
Programme Leader: English and Creative Writing
Department of English
University of Sunderland
=A0

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: NEWS FROM Royal Historical Society Bibliography AND Irish History
Online
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Forwarded on behalf of
Peter Salt


Our latest update is now available online at http://www.rhs.ac.uk/bibl
(RHS Bibliography), http://www.irishhistoryonline.ie (Irish History
Online) and http://www.history.ac.uk/cmh/lpol (London's Past Online).

***New records***

This update includes just over 4800 new records; just over 1700 of
these cover publications of 2007-8.

1127 of the new records relate to Irish history. These include around
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History Online ; the remainder of the records from the 2005 _Writings_
will be included in our next update. The number of records in the
database relating to Irish history now totals 65,500; all these
records are accessible using the "Irish material only" option on the
RHS search menu ( http://www.rhs.ac.uk/bibl/dataset.asp ), or through
the Irish History Online search menu ( http://www.rhs.ac.uk/bibl/ireland.asp

).

Although the London's Past Online project is no longer itself creating
new records, new material on London history continues to be made
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in this update relate to London and are available using the "London
material only" option on the RHS search menu (
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The complete database, including titles from Irish History Online and
London's Past Online, now contains nearly 446,000 records.

You can browse all the latest additions, including those from Irish
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***New or improved functionality***

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We welcome comments, suggestions and feedback at
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_______________________________________________________

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Project Editor,
Royal Historical Society British and Irish History Bibliographies
Online bibliography and project website: http://www.rhs.ac.uk/bibl

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick Maume
Subject: Re: The De Valera "Comely Maidens" speech of 1943
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From: Patrick Maume
It was actually addressed to an american audience (the Taoiseach
broadcast to America evry year on St. Patrick's Day) so maybe American
reaction might be worth considering as well?
Apparently the existing recording is not of the speech as actually
broadcast but was made later as a record - I am not sure whether this
was standard practice at the time (The current record of some of
Churchil'l's celebrated 1940 speeches is widely rumoured to be in the
voice of an acttor because Churchill was too busy to go back and
re-record them) or whether they were actually placed on commercial
release. If the latter, who bought them?
The stringent wartime censorship would presumably have inhibited
expresssions - at least in print - of contempt or ridicule, and the
newspapers were down to one sheet of paper because of rationing.
Best wishes,
Patrick

On 7/5/08, Rogers, James wrote:
> Listers,
>
>
>
> Forgive me if this an obvious question, or one that has been well covered
> elsewhere.
>
>
>
> What was the contemporary reaction to de Valera's famous 1943 St Patrick'=
s
> Day speech concerning "the Ireland we dreamed of..."
>
>
>
> In recent decades, it is all but impossible to find the speech taken
> seriously; I don't think I have ever seen the speech referenced as anythi=
ng
> other than at best na=EFve, and often as a target for jeering. But how di=
d it
> play in 1943?
>
>
>
> Jim Rogers
>
> UST Center for Irish Studies
>
>
>
>
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "William Mulligan Jr."
Subject: Re: On change
In-Reply-To:
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I am sure one of our members resident in Cork can speak to this more
authoritatively, but I believe both of the =D3 hAilp=EDn brothers, Sean =
=D3g and
Setanta, are fluent Irish speakers and that Se=E1n =D3g, I think it was, =
gave
the captain's acceptance speech when Cork won an all-Ireland hurling
championship in fluent Irish. So, I am not sure that is true that they
play it just as a game. (For those wondering, my research trips have
coincided with the peaks of GAA inter-county play and having watched =
many
matches in Cork pubs have become a follower of the Rebel County. With =
the
Internet all kinds of things are possible.)=20

Irish-born and Irish-American players were a major force in baseball in =
the
US during the period it developed into a professional sport and,
interestingly, in an Upper Peninsula League in the Michigan mining =
districts
organized by Irish-born and first generation Irish American businessmen =
in
the late nineteenth century. I am not sure if there is literature on =
this,
but I suspect immigrants adapt to native sports for many reasons other =
than
that it is just a game. I have done some work on a Polish-American =
athletic
club that points in a similar direction. =20

Bill Mulligan

William H. Mulligan, Jr., Ph.D.
Professor of History
Graduate Program Coordinator=20
Murray State University
Murray KY 42071-3341 USA=20
Office: 1-270-809-6571
Fax: 1-270-809-6587=20
=20
=20

-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On =
Behalf
Of D C Rose
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2008 4:41 AM
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: [IR-D] On change

I have been thinking over many of the points raised in recent messages =
about
revisionist history, fluid identities, the new Irish and so on, and =
trying
to make connections. As for revisionism, speaking as an ex-historian, =
all
history has been and should be revisionist: when it moved from hearsay =
and
tradition based to document based; when it was re-interpreted by =
Marxists,
feminists, structuralists, cliometricians, the Annales school and so on.

=20

If Catholic Ireland is dead and gone, and if one believes that a good =
thing
too, how does that affect our view of those who fought to make Ireland
Catholic? If we reverence those who fought for an Irish identity (the
literary nationalists) and freedom (Ireland not only free but Gaelic), =
how
do we 'revise' our opinion in the light of to-day's Ireland? Relevant =
or
obsolete? If you are an Irishman of pure Polish or Nigerian descent, =
what
does '98 mean to you? If the necessity was to de-Anglicise Ireland, =
what is
to-day's equivalent, if any, of that? The necessity to de-Disneyfy St
Patrick's Day? =20

=20

Fijians playing the Gaelic game are surely playing it just as a game, =
not as
some reiteration of the GAA founding ideals? I don't suppose Fijians =
who
play rugger read Tom Brown's Schooldays. Why is cricket despised in =
Ireland
and the national game in India?=20

=20

Forgive the rather rambling nature of these reflections; but perhaps =
they
cannot have any other nature.



David Rose, Paris

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: Irish Sport, Inclusion and Assimilation
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From: "Patrick Maume"
To: "The Irish Diaspora Studies List"
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Article, Foreign Fields and Foreigners on the Field:
Irish Sport, Inclusion and Assimilation


From: Patrick Maume
Camogie actually goes back to the beginning of the twentieth century -
my understanding from work on the early twentieht-century nationalist
press is that it was founded by some female members of the Keating
Branch of the Gaelic League (Dublin-based, recruited from speakers of
Munster Irish). Has anyone ever done a history?
Best wishes,
Patrick

On 7/5/08, Carmel McCaffrey wrote:
> Piaras,
> I may be the only one of the list who played camogie back in the day so
> let me relate some experiences of how some Irish schools treated it. I
> went to a school that was very much in the older "Anglo" tradition and
> camogie was frowned upon by the school authorities. The hockey pitch
> standing on proud display in the front of the school was tended to every
> day by gardeners. The pitch was rolled flat and well kept. The same
> for the tennis courts.
>
> The camogie pitch on the other hand was just a field at the rear of the
> school that the girls who opted to play had been given to use - on the
> school premises but otherwise ignored. The local GAA suppled a coach at
> their expense. On the other hand, the school paid the hockey coach who
> was the school "sports mistress." . The GAA also at their expense put
> posts up in the field for us. Camogie struggled to become part of the
> girls' schools system in Dublin, especially those schools that clung to
> an older tradition. The GAA was there to support those of us who wanted
> to play and they formed school leagues for us also.
>
> I chose to play because at age 12 I was already deeply aware of the
> seemingly ineradicable nature and superior footing given to the Anglo
> culture in Dublin. The GAA seemed to give us something that we could
> better relate to. Or that is certainly how it felt at the time. That it
> might now be trying to guard its principles or suspicious of attack on
> them does not surprise me. It will be interesting to see how it all
> develops. I was skeptical to read recently that one club was allowing
> women to wear burkas playing the game. Can't even imagine trying to do
> that! It is a much more physical game than hockey - none of that can't
> lift the hockey stick beyond whatever nonsense. Great memories!
>
> Carmel
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "MacEinri, Piaras"
Subject: Re: Article,
Foreign Fields and Foreigners on the Field: Irish Sport,
Inclusion and Assimilation
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Dear Carmel

Thank you for your interesting contribution. I suspect you may well be =
the only camogie player on the list!

You touch on a question, it seems to me, which I should have, but did =
not, refer to: class.=20

I don=92t know where you went to school, but the only thing I find =
surprising about your account is that there was any tolerance at all, in =
a school where the dominant game was hockey, for camogie. I think that =
for most =91private=92 (of course they were called =91 voluntary=92 =96 =
a much less offensive euphemism to disguise the reality of privilege and =
exclusion) middle-class schools for girls, for most of the history of =
the Free State, the dominant aim was to produce girls who were docile, =
domesticated, marriageable and who possessed the correct social skills =
=96 a knowledge of French and the piano being examples. Certain orders =
(the Ursulines and the Presentation Sisters come to mind) saw this as =
their primary aim.=20

It seems to me that these aims =96 following in the logic of producing =
women fit to marry the officers and administrator of Empire, before =
independence (and for some afterwards) ran into an evident problem from =
time to time. In a viciously patriarchal society, where women had few =
and sometimes no chances, many feminists of their day became nuns and =
teachers. Some even kept their awkward cussedness and independence and =
went against the prevailing wisdom of the day, with interesting effects =
for the girls who were pupils in those schools. Inevitably, some of =
these tough-minded women were nationalists and radicals. That said, I =
think they were probably in a small minority, but maybe they were part =
of the reason why camogie was =91tolerated=92 if not encouraged, in your =
school.=20

All that aside, I think that in the end, in a place like Dublin, both =
hockey and rugby were inextricably bound up with class, just as they are =
in Cork and other parts of Irelan (Limerick is an exception especially =
in rugby). An alternative geography also grew up, of soccer played as a =
working class game, usually in towns which had been =91garrison towns=92 =
before independence. But the GAA bestrode the landscape like a colossus, =
going from strength to strength and claiming the allegiance of the vast =
majority of the population. It is noteworthy that in the Diaspora today =
even rugby school types are happy to play Gaelic football.

It=92s all very different now in a more general way; the lines are =
blurred. In Munster the local (professional) rugby team draws huge =
crowds, while the Irish predilection, especially among males, of =
following English and Scottish soccer clubs, has not gone away. But the =
same people will also follow GAA games: if Cork is playing in a =
provincial or All Ireland final you will see the soccer and rugby heroes =
of the day in the stadium. The English rugby team came to Croke Park, =
the high altar of GAA games, and the sky did not fall, nor did it when =
soccer was played there (it=92s one of the top ten stadia in all of =
Europe).

I think class privilege still dictates who plays what game in Dublin in =
particular, and the same people, in the case of the male of the species =
anyway, end up on the golf courses and in the boardrooms where decisions =
are made. It=92s not simple though =96 De Valera=92s connections were =
with a rugby school, Blackrock College (so were James Joyce=92s). So =
I=92m not sure about the =91seemingly ineradicable nature and superior =
footing given to the Anglo culture in Dublin=92. I think the key marker =
was not =91Anglo=92 culture, but class.

You are right to refer to changing mores in the GAA, but there was never =
any suggestion that women should be allowed to wear =91burkas=92 while =
playing. The burka is an all-enveloping garment, covering body, head =
and face. Obviously you could not play camogie, or any other sport, =
wearing such a garment. Rather, the issue was about the wearing of =
=91hijabs=92 (the head scarf, which does not cover the face), in =
Wexford. A hijab is no more and no less of an encumbrance, for instance, =
than the the safety helment which is routinely worn by hurlers and =
camogies players alike nowadays. =20

The =91principle=92 that the GAA should be open to all, irrespective of =
background, has often been asserted on the organisation=92s part; a =
recent President, Jack Boothman, was a member of the Church of Ireland. =
If Muslim girls in hijabs want to play camogie, I say bring them on.

Best=20

Piaras

-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List on behalf of Carmel McCaffrey
Sent: Sat 7/5/2008 3:52 PM
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Article, Foreign Fields and Foreigners on the Field: =
Irish Sport, Inclusion and Assimilation
=20
Piaras,
I may be the only one of the list who played camogie back in the day so=20
let me relate some experiences of how some Irish schools treated it. I =

went to a school that was very much in the older "Anglo" tradition and=20
camogie was frowned upon by the school authorities. The hockey pitch=20
standing on proud display in the front of the school was tended to every =

day by gardeners. The pitch was rolled flat and well kept. The same=20
for the tennis courts.=20

The camogie pitch on the other hand was just a field at the rear of the=20
school that the girls who opted to play had been given to use - on the=20
school premises but otherwise ignored. The local GAA suppled a coach at=20
their expense. On the other hand, the school paid the hockey coach who=20
was the school "sports mistress." . The GAA also at their expense put=20
posts up in the field for us. Camogie struggled to become part of the=20
girls' schools system in Dublin, especially those schools that clung to=20
an older tradition. The GAA was there to support those of us who wanted =

to play and they formed school leagues for us also.

I chose to play because at age 12 I was already deeply aware of the=20
seemingly ineradicable nature and superior footing given to the Anglo=20
culture in Dublin. The GAA seemed to give us something that we could=20
better relate to. Or that is certainly how it felt at the time. That it=20
might now be trying to guard its principles or suspicious of attack on=20
them does not surprise me. It will be interesting to see how it all=20
develops. I was skeptical to read recently that one club was allowing=20
women to wear burkas playing the game. Can't even imagine trying to do=20
that! It is a much more physical game than hockey - none of that can't=20
lift the hockey stick beyond whatever nonsense. Great memories!

Carmel

MacEinri, Piaras wrote:
> Dear Patrick,
>
> I look forward to reading this article, on a topic of growing =
interest.
>
> One of our MA students is a camogie (women's hurling) coach here in =
Cork and she is carrying out her research on the issue of how welcoming =
local GAA clubs are towards migrants. Initial indications are that a =
warm welcome is far from being a foregone conclusion, but her work is at =
an early stage.
>
> best
>
> Piaras
>
> .
>
> =20

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "MacEinri, Piaras"
Subject: Re: On change
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Dear Bill, David and all,

You are quite right about the =D3 hAilp=EDns (and there is a third =
sporting member of the family, Aisake). The family also embodies the =
notion of hybridity, in sport as in life. Setanta and Aisake, both born =
in Australia, are now back there playing for Australian Rules =
professional club Carlton. Setanta also played for Ireland against =
Australia in the last International Rules series (a hybrid version of =
Gaelic and Australian Rules football). Se=E1n =D3g is still playing for =
Cork. Over the years several GAA players have been recruited to =
Australian professional football and a number have also gone on to play =
professional soccer. Maybe the =D3 hAilp=EDns are transnational rather =
the diasporic.

It is true that Se=E1n =D3g is bilingual and did make his acceptance =
speech in Irish. He was making a point but I have heard him interviewed =
on the topic several times and he does not make an explicitly political =
issue of it. I think that in the case of =91hybrid=92 families the =
question of identity is often posed in a more explicit way than in those =
families where it is seen as unproblematic =96 Hugo Hamilton, a novelist =
who grew up in a Irish/German household in Dublin with a rabidly =
intolerant Irish-speaking father =96 makes this very point in =
yesterday=92s Business Post. The name Setanta (the original name of =
C=FAchulainn, the hero of the Ulster cycle) suggests that =D3 hAilp=EDn =
senior was making a point about his Fermanagh roots, while Aisake is a =
name from Rotuma, where his wife is from.=20

The question of cricket is an interesting one. For one thing it is =
experiencing a substantial revival in Ireland just now, mainly because =
of Ireland=92s growing Asian population. Ireland and Bangladesh played a =
few weeks ago (a draw). One of the Bangladeshi supporters was Sujon =
Alamgir, a rising GAA hurling star who plays for the Dublin minor team. =
I think it=92s true that cricket was despised by many in Ireland as long =
as it was identified as a solely =91English=92 game associated with the =
pre-independence period but that image is now changing rapidly as many =
new migrants, including English people, revitalise the game. Moreover, =
it was never that simple in the first place. The local cricket club in =
Cork has a mixed membership and I presume it always had. A member of my =
extended family who is a local sporting historian of some note tells me =
that in Kilkenny, where he lives, the most popular game until the GAA =
was founded in the 1880s was cricket; Kilkenny is now the undisputed =
home of hurling (along with Cork). An added twist is that hurling was =
often strongly associated with parts of the country where teams received =
the support and patronage of (Anglo-Irish) landlords.

To address David=92s question, I think =9298 is still relevant just as =
the French Revolution is, because Tone=92s vision was of a nation where =
Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter could be at home. In today=92s terms =
that means the person of Polish or Nigerian descent as much as the =
person whose ancestors were all born here. By contrast, it seems to me =
that the notion of =91de-Anglicising=92 Ireland was always wrong-headed: =
English was spoken in Ireland for centuries by the time the Irish =
Irelanders came along. You don't preserve one part of your heritage by =
destroying another part of it.

This is a complicated an interesting issue with its dark side as well. A =
member of the Fermanagh senior GAA team, Darren Graham, went public =
last year on what he said had been years of sectarian abuse (he is =
Protestant). In spite of its stated policy of non-sectarianism and =
inclusiveness it appears that little or nothing had been done about it. =
Similarly, although there is a strong 'sports against racism' movement =
in the soccer scene here, racist abuse is not unusual. Yet sport remains =
one of the most acceptable and attractive routes to integration.


best

Piaras

-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List on behalf of William Mulligan Jr.
Sent: Sun 7/6/2008 9:33 PM
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] On change
=20
I am sure one of our members resident in Cork can speak to this more
authoritatively, but I believe both of the =D3 hAilp=EDn brothers, Sean =
=D3g and
Setanta, are fluent Irish speakers and that Se=E1n =D3g, I think it was, =
gave
the captain's acceptance speech when Cork won an all-Ireland hurling
championship in fluent Irish. So, I am not sure that is true that they
play it just as a game. (For those wondering, my research trips have
coincided with the peaks of GAA inter-county play and having watched =
many
matches in Cork pubs have become a follower of the Rebel County. With =
the
Internet all kinds of things are possible.)=20

Irish-born and Irish-American players were a major force in baseball in =
the
US during the period it developed into a professional sport and,
interestingly, in an Upper Peninsula League in the Michigan mining =
districts
organized by Irish-born and first generation Irish American businessmen =
in
the late nineteenth century. I am not sure if there is literature on =
this,
but I suspect immigrants adapt to native sports for many reasons other =
than
that it is just a game. I have done some work on a Polish-American =
athletic
club that points in a similar direction. =20

Bill Mulligan

William H. Mulligan, Jr., Ph.D.
Professor of History
Graduate Program Coordinator=20
Murray State University
Murray KY 42071-3341 USA=20
Office: 1-270-809-6571
Fax: 1-270-809-6587=20
=20
=20

-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On =
Behalf
Of D C Rose
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2008 4:41 AM
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: [IR-D] On change

I have been thinking over many of the points raised in recent messages =
about
revisionist history, fluid identities, the new Irish and so on, and =
trying
to make connections. As for revisionism, speaking as an ex-historian, =
all
history has been and should be revisionist: when it moved from hearsay =
and
tradition based to document based; when it was re-interpreted by =
Marxists,
feminists, structuralists, cliometricians, the Annales school and so on.

=20

If Catholic Ireland is dead and gone, and if one believes that a good =
thing
too, how does that affect our view of those who fought to make Ireland
Catholic? If we reverence those who fought for an Irish identity (the
literary nationalists) and freedom (Ireland not only free but Gaelic), =
how
do we 'revise' our opinion in the light of to-day's Ireland? Relevant =
or
obsolete? If you are an Irishman of pure Polish or Nigerian descent, =
what
does '98 mean to you? If the necessity was to de-Anglicise Ireland, =
what is
to-day's equivalent, if any, of that? The necessity to de-Disneyfy St
Patrick's Day? =20

=20

Fijians playing the Gaelic game are surely playing it just as a game, =
not as
some reiteration of the GAA founding ideals? I don't suppose Fijians =
who
play rugger read Tom Brown's Schooldays. Why is cricket despised in =
Ireland
and the national game in India?=20

=20

Forgive the rather rambling nature of these reflections; but perhaps =
they
cannot have any other nature.



David Rose, Paris

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Carmel McCaffrey
Subject: Re: Article,
Foreign Fields and Foreigners on the Field: Irish Sport,
Inclusion and Assimilation
In-Reply-To:
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Piaras,
You are correct of course and I should have written "hijabs" - but I
still think that it is a bit daft to wear them playing camogie. We were
even told to remove hair ribbons - remember those accouterments? - in
case they became loose and might pose a danger. A helmet stays in
place. I can see the hijab accidentally covering part of peripheral
vision and wham you have a camogie stick in your face.

Your description of my school type - "voluntary" is the correct
euphemism but by my time there in the 1960s they promoted a more
independent thinking environment for girls. Maybe as you say because of
the latter day Free State feminists? We had a lively debating society
and issues like religious freedom and whether Pearse's dream for an
Irish school system was fulfilled or even valid, were subjects for free
debate. But there was certainly a culture of Anglocentrism - and with
that went its first cousin, the sense of "Irishness" being second
rate. I know the Irishness of the Gaelic League types was of course
mostly invention - my own family scoffed at the whole notion of Irish
Ireland. So the question for youngsters like me was - who were we in
fact? If not "Anglo" and not "Gaelic League Irish" then what? I
suppose the GAA played a role in the schools like mine in shaping that
answer by offering some alternative or at least a space to think in.
That is how it felt at the time.

Of course this is all a very nuanced personal experience and the more
egregious aspects of the GAA such as the ban on "foreign" games was
totally ignored. Someone mentioned in another thread the question of
cricket. I have always loved cricket and it posed no apparent threat to
our identity. My brothers would put on the shortwave radio at night and
we would listen to the Ashes matches from Australia. We always
supported whoever was playing the MCC [English Cricket team]! /How's
that/ for a clear sense of identity?

Carmel


MacEinri, Piaras wrote:
> Dear Carmel
>
> Thank you for your interesting contribution. I suspect you may well be the only camogie player on the list!
>
>
>
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>
> .
>
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: Article, CULTURE AND COMBAT IN THE WESTERN WORLD
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A number of Ir-D members will find this a useful article - it summarises
recent research and thinking on the whole 'martial races' literature and
debates. The Irish material is placed in that context - Bowman, Denman,
Bartlett & Jeffrey. No mention of Joanna Bourke...

P.O'S.


WATSON, ALEXANDER. 2008.
CULTURE AND COMBAT IN THE WESTERN WORLD, 1900-1945. The Historical Journal
51 (02):529.

ABSTRACT

This article reviews recent research investigating the impact of societal
culture on combat performance in the western world during the first half of
the twentieth century. It identifies two main strands of historiography. One
group of studies has focused on societal culture's influence in shaping the
form and functioning of military institutions. A second approach adopted by
current scholarship has been to examine societal culture's effect on
individual soldiers' resilience and motivation. The article compares and
evaluates the results of this research. It concludes that, while sometimes
overstressed at other factors' expense, especially combatants' common
humanity and the complexity of militaries' own cultures, societal culture
has proved to be a subtle yet important influence on martial performance.

Correspondence:

c1 Clare Hall, Cambridge, CB3 9AL ajw226[at]cam.ac.uk

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: Summer 2008 issue of Dublin Review of Books now online
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Welcome to the drb

The Dublin Review of Books is a free quarterly online journal whose main
object is the publication of clear and thoughtful essays based on =
recently
published books. Articles are normally between 3,000 and 7,000 words.
In giving writers the space to develop and elaborate a full argument, =
the
drb moves beyond the limitations normally faced by reviewers in =
newspapers
and magazines. While the journal is Irish in its core perspective, an
interest in the literature, history and culture of Europe and the wider
world also characterises its pages. Prospective contributors are invited =
to
contact us at info[at]drb.ie.

Maurice Earls
Enda O'Doherty

The Summer issue of the Dublin Review of Books is now online at =
www.drb.ie
=20

Catriona Crowe reviews Norma Clarke=92s biography of Laetitia =
Pilkington, an
intriguing literary adventuress and friend of Dean
Swift who flourished and suffered in early eighteenth century Dublin and
London.

Enda O=92Doherty reads Dutch historian and journalist Geert Mak=92s =
short but
sparkling meditation on Istanbul and links it to the
larger themes set out in his acclaimed 2007 work, In Europe: Travels =
Through
the Twentieth Century.

Martin McGarry puts the career of the great Belgian surrealist Ren=E9 =
Magritte
in the context of the group of artists and theorists
to which he belonged and the history of Brussels, the city in which he =
lived
and worked.

Barra =D3 Seaghdha finds a study of modern Irish poetry intended for a =
largely
British readership vitiated by a lack of any coherent
historical account of Anglo-Irish relations.

Stephen Wilson enjoys Foul Play, a critique of competitive sport by Joe
Humphreys, but is sceptical of attempts to rid it of its
more unpleasant features and turn it into =93pure play=94.

Cormac =D3 Gr=E1da tests the theory that Ireland=92s Celtic Tiger =
prosperity came
at considerable social cost by charting some
statistical measurements of recent changes in personal well-being.
=20
Paul Daly finds that a recent study of the framing of the 1937 =
Constitution
demonstrates it is not the reactionary document it is
often assumed to be and indeed that the drafting process shows Eamon de
Valera as a visionary democrat.

Colin Murphy examines the emergence of the Angolan state through the
anti-colonial struggle and ensuing civil war and argues that
the relationship between international aid, war and state corruption =
needs
to be examined more closely.

Richard Tillinghast examines the career of Augustus Pugin, the great =
pioneer
of Victorian Gothic architecture and design.=20
Maria Johnston reviews the poetic achievement of David Wheatley.=20

Anthony Tatlow examines the background, in terms of native theatrical
traditions and contemporary societal stresses, of the
Chinese production of JM Synge=92s The Playboy of the Western World.

John- Paul McCarthy reviews a new study of Pierre Elliot Trudeau, the
enigmatic titan who dominated late twentieth century
Canadian politics.

See the articles on www.drb.ie =
=20

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Marion Casey
Subject: Re: The De Valera "Comely Maidens" speech of 1943
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The New York Times and the Washington Post covered the speech in
small stories printed on 18 March 1943, picked up from the Associated Press
wire service. Their emphasis seems to be on Ireland rather than Irish
America, and it is serious in tone. The Times had the longer piece; even
so, it is short enough to type out for everyone:

___________________________________________________________________________=
____
DE VALERA CAUTIONS EIRE TO STAY 'DISTINCT NATION'

Dublin, March 17 -- Prime Minister Eamon de Valera told Irishmen observing
one of the most restrained St. Patrick's Days in history today that the
better they preserved the "characteristics as a distinct nation" the more
secure would be their post-war freedom.

"Restoration of the unity of national territory and restoration of a
national language," he said, "are the greatest of our uncompleted national
tasks.

"Physical dangers that threaten and the need for increasing vigilance in th=
e
matter of defense as well as unremitting attention to the serious problems
war has brought us should not cause us to neglect our duty to the language.=
"

Eire presented a strange contrast to former years. There were no parades
and no rallies. The "pubs" were closed. Customary festivities were
prevented by the shortages caused by the war.
___________________________________________________________________________=
___________


The Washington Post printed paragraphs 1, 2, & 4 verbatim. The New York
Times ran the story center, but below-the-fold, of their page devoted to th=
e
1943 NY St. Patrick's Day parade in which 30,000 marched.

Hope this helps,
Marion


Marion R. Casey
Glucksman Ireland House
New York University


On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 9:44 AM, Patrick Maume wrote=
:

> From: Patrick Maume
> It was actually addressed to an american audience (the Taoiseach
> broadcast to America evry year on St. Patrick's Day) so maybe American
> reaction might be worth considering as well?
> Apparently the existing recording is not of the speech as actually
> broadcast but was made later as a record - I am not sure whether this
> was standard practice at the time (The current record of some of
> Churchil'l's celebrated 1940 speeches is widely rumoured to be in the
> voice of an acttor because Churchill was too busy to go back and
> re-record them) or whether they were actually placed on commercial
> release. If the latter, who bought them?
> The stringent wartime censorship would presumably have inhibited
> expresssions - at least in print - of contempt or ridicule, and the
> newspapers were down to one sheet of paper because of rationing.
> Best wishes,
> Patrick
>
> On 7/5/08, Rogers, James wrote:
> > Listers,
> >
> >
> >
> > Forgive me if this an obvious question, or one that has been well cover=
ed
> > elsewhere.
> >
> >
> >
> > What was the contemporary reaction to de Valera's famous 1943 St
> Patrick's
> > Day speech concerning "the Ireland we dreamed of..."
> >
> >
> >
> > In recent decades, it is all but impossible to find the speech taken
> > seriously; I don't think I have ever seen the speech referenced as
> anything
> > other than at best na=EFve, and often as a target for jeering. But how =
did
> it
> > play in 1943?
> >
> >
> >
> > Jim Rogers
> >
> > UST Center for Irish Studies
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "MacEinri, Piaras"
Subject: Re: Article,
Foreign Fields and Foreigners on the Field: Irish Sport,
Inclusion and Assimilation
In-Reply-To: A
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Dear Carmel

Thank you for yours. And what an amazing medium the Internet is and what
a wonderful network Paddy O'Sullivan runs; we could not have had these
kinds of conversations in the 1980s or earlier.

I don't think we should get too upset about hijabs. In the Ireland I
grew up in, more or less the same as yours, the place was full of women
in veils but was run by men in frocks. Thankfully, no more. I don't mean
that as an anticlerical remark. I think that the Catholic Church and
other faith communities are probably going to experience a kind of
renaissance in a new more hybrid Ireland, even if I remain a firm
secularist who also recognises that my position is a minority one (the
Archdiosese of Dublin yesterday ordained three new priests for the
diocese, an event in itself; one is Vietnamese). As for the hair
ribbons, surely this was another example of control freakery, _the_
most typical feature of Irish public culture until recently? Hijabs come
in many shapes, sizes and designs. When I lived in Lebanon I used to
travel widely with a Swedish journalist, Agneta Ramberg (my daughter's
Muireann's godmother). Her 'hijab', which she needed for interviewing
Shia imams in South Lebanon, was a small, elegant and beautiful wisp of
silk, but it met the essential requirements; she could produce it in
seconds from her handbag and meet the social code of the time and place.

I don't know what school you went to, although I suspect that many were
like this. I think that nowadays the anglocentrism is far in the past,
although I also think that Ireland itself has moved into the mainstream
of Anglo-American culture and has embraced it, forgetting sometimes the
European and African links which marked us earlier as a people. Insofar
as this has led to a certain inward-looking and self-congratulatory
smugness, I think this is very regrettable, especially as the Irish
diaspora itself is increasingly invisible to us here in Ireland. For
instance, to my knowledge, there is only one serious history of Irish
missionaries (The Irish Missionary Movement, by Ed Hogan) although there
is a lot of hagiographical stuff as well as some good smaller scale
studies. There are big research gaps here, for anyone interested in
diaspora issues, yet most of these men and women will be dead in the
next twenty years.

Your family back ground was certainly more liberal than mine. I freely
admit that I would have scoffed at cricket as a child. When Nelson's
Pillar was blown up in 1966, my mother announced this fact as a great
victory and most of us thought it was. Dublin itself was a foreign city,
built by aliens, to us displaced rural western migrants. I think it's
different now and I'm glad.

Best

Piaras=20

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: CFP,
Midwest American Conference: Ireland: Arrivals and Departures,
Metropolitan State University in St. Paul, Minnesota
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Forwarded on behalf of
Professor Thomas O'Connell
Thomas.OConnell[at]metrostate.edu

CFP: Midwest American Conference: Ireland: Arrivals and Departures

This year's Midwest American Conference for Irish Studies will be held at
Metropolitan State University in St. Paul, Minnesota. The conference will
open with a reception on the evening of Thursday, October 9. Join ACIS!

The conference theme is IRELAND: ARRIVALS AND DEPARTURES. We encourage
attendees to think of these concepts in the broadest possible way -- not
merely as the migration of individuals and groups, but as of the arrival of
new ideas and new critical perspectives, and concomitantly, as the departure
of received wisdom. We note the arrival of new literary voices, and the
arrival of new conceptions of Ireland. And we believe all papers are best
conceived as a "point of departure" for further research and discussion.

This conference hopes to explore the movements of ideas, peoples, and more
in Irish art, history, music, literature, cinema, and culture in Ireland
from earliest times to the present. We welcome papers on any aspect of Irish
studies from new or present ACIS members.

Please propose 20-minute papers in 250-300-word abstracts in .pdf or .doc
format to Professor Thomas O'Connell at Thomas.OConnell[at]metrostate.edu by
midnight on
August 1, 2008 (Early submissions encouraged.). Include your name,
institutional affiliation, and contact information in document, as well as
in the body of your email.

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: 2nd cfp, Neither Here Nor There: Writing the Irish Diaspora,
University of Limerick
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Forwarded on behalf of
Dr. Tina O=92Toole, University of Limerick

Conference: Neither Here Nor There: Writing the Irish Diaspora
University of Limerick, Ireland.
31st Oct - 1st Nov 2008

Emigration has been central to modern Irish history and society, yet the
writing of emigrant experiences over the past two centuries is only
beginning to be constituted as a vitally important field of enquiry =
within
Irish Studies. This conference, specifically convened to discuss =
literary
and cultural constructions of the Irish diaspora, marks a milestone in
this process.

Plenary Speakers include:
Prof. Patricia Coughlan, University College Cork
Prof. Marjorie Howes, Boston College
Dr. Breda Gray, University of Limerick
Prof. Eithne Luibh=E9id, University of Arizona

Conference panels will address the rich heritage of creative expressions
of, and responses to, Irish emigrant lives, including those found in
fiction, poetry, drama, autobiography, and memoir, as well as popular
forms and visual culture. We shall also attend to the theoretical
frameworks within which diaspora has to date been framed and discussed,
focusing in particular on Irish diasporic theory and criticism. Some
panels will develop critical and/or literary-historical discussions of
Irish writers and writings of emigration and diaspora; others may
concentrate on theoretical approaches and on the many other =
methodological
questions arising in this field, where primary source material can =
itself
be formally and/or thematically disparate.

Specific questions such as the following might be addressed:
=B7How has the Irish diaspora been constructed and imagined within Irish
literature?
=B7How has it appeared in the received canonical texts of Irish literary
history?
=B7How have homeland/diaspora relations been reflected in or shaped by =
this
literature?
=B7In what ways has Irish cultural production more generally been =
influenced
by emigrant texts and discourses?
=B7How has women=92s writing reconfigured received ideas about the Irish
emigrant experience?
=B7How have Irish emigration writings been gendered?
=B7How have textual constructions of the =91Irish diaspora=92 changed in =
more
recent times, with growing and altering transnational and global
connections?
=B7Queer Migrations: how might recent work by and about LGBTQ migrants
challenge traditional textual constructions of the Irish diasporic =
subject?
=B7How do concepts of migration, diaspora and the transnational move =
between
political/social science discourses and literary/cultural texts?

Conference Organisers:
Dr. Tina O=92Toole, University of Limerick
Dr. Kathryn Laing, Mary Immaculate College, Limerick
Dr. Caoilfhionn N=ED Bheach=E1in, University of Limerick

Deadline for abstracts: 31st July 2008
Abstracts should be approximately 250-300 words. Abstracts and queries =
to:
Yvonne O=92Keeffe, Department of Languages & Cultural Studies, =
University of
Limerick.
E-mail: diaspora[at]ul.ie

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: mdenie[at]WESTGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Irish squalor
In-Reply-To:
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You may find the following useful:

William H. A. Williams, _Tourism, Landscape, and the Irish Character:
British Travel Writers in Pre-Famine Ireland_ (University of Wisconsin
Press, 2008).


Michael de Nie


Quoting Dymphna Lonergan :

> Does anyone know of any studies on Irish squalor of the eighteenth and
> nineteenth centuries both in Ireland and abroad? I'm still researching
> the name 'Irishtown' and interested in the relationship between the
> name and poor housing conditions or poor housekeeping practices.



Michael de Nie
Department of History
University of West Georgia
mdenie[at]westga.edu

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Gavin Foster
Subject: Re: De Valera, The Ireland That We Dreamed of
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Hello,

RE: de Valera's March 17, 1943 radio broadcast:
Page 466 of Maurice Moynihan (ed.) 'Speeches and Statements by Eamon de V=
alera
1917 - 73' (N.Y., 1980) does indeed give it as "comely maidens" rather th=
an
"happy" ones. He doesn't indicate the exact source for this particular
version...

Best,
Gavin Foster



Quoting Patrick O'Sullivan :

> Everything below will be familiar to the de Valera specialists.
>
> But I thought that it should be possible to tidy up knowledge about the=
1943
> de Valera radio talk/speech.
>
> So, this morning, between my first and second cup of tea, I looked at w=
hat
> was to hand on my own shelves, also looking through Google and Amazon, =
and
> through various secret doors...
>
> 1.
> The sound file is on
> Liam Wylie's web page
> RT=C9 Libraries and Archives
> http://www.rte.ie/libraries
>
> Follow the links from the de Valera material.
>
> And you get this...
>
> "The Ireland That We Dreamed of"
>
> 1943 was the 50th anniversary of the foundation of the Gaelic League, a=
n
> organisation that aimed to preserve and restore the Irish language and =
Irish
> culture. Part of de Valera's message to the nation on St Patrick's Day =
1943
> portrays a vision of an ideal Ireland. This is how he articulates it on
> radio:
>
> "... The Ireland that we dreamed of would be the home of a people who v=
alued
> material wealth only as a basis for right living, of a people who, sati=
sfied
> with frugal comfort, devoted their leisure to the things of the spirit =
=96 a
> land whose countryside would be bright with cosy homesteads, whose fiel=
ds
> and villages would be joyous with the sounds of industry, with the romp=
ing
> of sturdy children, the contest of athletic youths and the laughter of =
happy
> maidens, whose firesides would be forums for the wisdom of serene old a=
ge.
> The home, in short, of a people living the life that God desires that m=
en
> should live. . . ."
>
> Programme Title:
> Address by Mr de Valera
> 1st Broadcast: 17 March 1943
> Speaker: Eamon de Valera
> Clip Duration: 02'49"
>
> In the recording de Valera clearly says 'the laughter of happy maidens'=
...
>
> *** I will contact Liam Wylie and see if we can establish the provenan=
ce of
> this recording. Was it the actual thing that was broadcast, or somethi=
ng
> created at a later date?
>
>
> 2.
> Straightforward citation in written works turned out to be a bit proble=
matic
> - the usual citing of a secondary source, which cites a secondary sourc=
e,
> which cites...
>
> Which is very naughty.
>
> However a number of good children have given a proper source.
>
> It is
> Moynihan, Maurice, ed.
> 1980 Speeches and Statements by Eamon de Valera, 1917-1972. Dublin: Gi=
ll
> and Macmillan.
> p 466
>
> As far as I can see authors who cite Moynihan always give 'the laughter=
of
> comely maidens'...
>
> I have found one early citation which gives the source of the text as I=
rish
> Press, 1943. I have not been able to pursue this further, or find a pr=
ecise
> date. Did de Valera arrange for his texts to be published in full in t=
he
> Irish Press?
>
> *** Could someone who has access to Moynihan have a look at p 466 and j=
ust
> check. Also see what the first source for the text is.
>
> 3.
> Considering Jim Roger's query...
>
> The speech is much cited. But it tends to be cited to make a BaBaBoom
> point, rather than analysed.
>
> The only time I have ever heard it defended was during a visit to NY, w=
hen
> Joe Lee launched an ecological, sustainable resources, environmental re=
ading
> of the speech. Now, not all Joe Lee's bon mots or bien percus make it =
to
> the considered page - I don't know if this one has.
>
> At some point the text has become contaminated with 'dancing at the
> crossroads...'
>
> I have not been able pursued this line much... But it does seem to be =
part
> of something of a tradition of disparagement or belittling. For exampl=
e...
>
> Thomas M. Wilson
> The anthropology of Ireland
> 2006
> Page 96
>
> has
> '...in which he is fondly remembered as referring to 'comely maidens da=
ncing
> at the crossroads' (erroneously, according to Wulff 2003a: 192).'
>
> This is a reference to one of Helena Wulff's 2003 publications - most
> probably
> =93The Irish Body in Motion: Moral Politics, National Identity and Danc=
e=94, in
> Noel Dyck and Eduardo P. Archetti (eds.), Sport, Dance and Embodied
> Identities. Oxford: Berg.
> To which I do not have access.
>
> An Intelligent Person's Guide to Modern Ireland
> By John Waters
> 1997
> P 41-44
> Has some discussion of the text. Waters is clear that de Valera said '=
happy
> maidens' on air, and sees continuing references to 'comely' as attempts=
to
> disparage.
>
> See also discussion in
> Abortion and Divorce Law in Ireland
> By Jennifer E. Spreng
> P 215-216
>
> You can follow the text around the world - it is in the Field Day Antho=
logy
> and on a Tamil Nationalist site. It is in Race and Nation: A Reader By
> Clive Christie, 1998.
>
> 4.
> Following up Marion Casey's note about mentions of the speech in The Ne=
w
> York Times and the Washington Post, 18 March 1943, picked up from the
> Associated Press wire service...
>
> The Irish Independent, Thursday March 18, 1943, has a similar short ite=
m.
> It is headed LANGUAGE PLEA BY MR. DE VALERA, and sums up the speech as =
a
> plea for the restoration of the Irish language. It makes no mention of
> maidens, comely or otherwise.
>
> 5.
> If I can report on my own reactions when I read the text of the speech =
for
> the first time... I was actually shocked.
>
> Of course I came to the speech from the study of emigration. And I
> interpreted the wishes, and the policies, outlined in the speech as rec=
ipes
> for emigration. It seemed to me extraordinary cold blooded.
>
> The other thing that struck me was the diction. Parts of it read like =
a
> ballad - with the listing of wishes or memories that you find in song. =
As I
> have said before, this is Irishness as a version of pastoral.
>
> It might partly be a generation thing - there is the same turning to po=
etic
> diction in the Tryst with Destiny speech by Jawaharlal Nehru.
>
> Patrick O'Sullivan
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: De Valera, The Ireland That We Dreamed of
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Everything below will be familiar to the de Valera specialists.

But I thought that it should be possible to tidy up knowledge about the =
1943
de Valera radio talk/speech.

So, this morning, between my first and second cup of tea, I looked at =
what
was to hand on my own shelves, also looking through Google and Amazon, =
and
through various secret doors...

1.
The sound file is on
Liam Wylie's web page
RT=C9 Libraries and Archives
http://www.rte.ie/libraries

Follow the links from the de Valera material.

And you get this...

"The Ireland That We Dreamed of"

1943 was the 50th anniversary of the foundation of the Gaelic League, an
organisation that aimed to preserve and restore the Irish language and =
Irish
culture. Part of de Valera's message to the nation on St Patrick's Day =
1943
portrays a vision of an ideal Ireland. This is how he articulates it on
radio:

"... The Ireland that we dreamed of would be the home of a people who =
valued
material wealth only as a basis for right living, of a people who, =
satisfied
with frugal comfort, devoted their leisure to the things of the spirit =
=96 a
land whose countryside would be bright with cosy homesteads, whose =
fields
and villages would be joyous with the sounds of industry, with the =
romping
of sturdy children, the contest of athletic youths and the laughter of =
happy
maidens, whose firesides would be forums for the wisdom of serene old =
age.
The home, in short, of a people living the life that God desires that =
men
should live. . . ."

Programme Title:
Address by Mr de Valera
1st Broadcast: 17 March 1943
Speaker: Eamon de Valera
Clip Duration: 02'49"

In the recording de Valera clearly says 'the laughter of happy =
maidens'...

*** I will contact Liam Wylie and see if we can establish the =
provenance of
this recording. Was it the actual thing that was broadcast, or =
something
created at a later date?


2.
Straightforward citation in written works turned out to be a bit =
problematic
- the usual citing of a secondary source, which cites a secondary =
source,
which cites...

Which is very naughty.

However a number of good children have given a proper source.

It is
Moynihan, Maurice, ed.
1980 Speeches and Statements by Eamon de Valera, 1917-1972. Dublin: =
Gill
and Macmillan.
p 466

As far as I can see authors who cite Moynihan always give 'the laughter =
of
comely maidens'...

I have found one early citation which gives the source of the text as =
Irish
Press, 1943. I have not been able to pursue this further, or find a =
precise
date. Did de Valera arrange for his texts to be published in full in =
the
Irish Press? =20

*** Could someone who has access to Moynihan have a look at p 466 and =
just
check. Also see what the first source for the text is.

3.=20
Considering Jim Roger's query...

The speech is much cited. But it tends to be cited to make a BaBaBoom
point, rather than analysed.

The only time I have ever heard it defended was during a visit to NY, =
when
Joe Lee launched an ecological, sustainable resources, environmental =
reading
of the speech. Now, not all Joe Lee's bon mots or bien percus make it =
to
the considered page - I don't know if this one has.

At some point the text has become contaminated with 'dancing at the
crossroads...'

I have not been able pursued this line much... But it does seem to be =
part
of something of a tradition of disparagement or belittling. For =
example...

Thomas M. Wilson
The anthropology of Ireland
2006
Page 96

has
'...in which he is fondly remembered as referring to 'comely maidens =
dancing
at the crossroads' (erroneously, according to Wulff 2003a: 192).'

This is a reference to one of Helena Wulff's 2003 publications - most
probably=20
=93The Irish Body in Motion: Moral Politics, National Identity and =
Dance=94, in
Noel Dyck and Eduardo P. Archetti (eds.), Sport, Dance and Embodied
Identities. Oxford: Berg.
To which I do not have access.

An Intelligent Person's Guide to Modern Ireland
By John Waters
1997
P 41-44
Has some discussion of the text. Waters is clear that de Valera said =
'happy
maidens' on air, and sees continuing references to 'comely' as attempts =
to
disparage.

See also discussion in
Abortion and Divorce Law in Ireland
By Jennifer E. Spreng
P 215-216

You can follow the text around the world - it is in the Field Day =
Anthology
and on a Tamil Nationalist site. It is in Race and Nation: A Reader By
Clive Christie, 1998.

4.
Following up Marion Casey's note about mentions of the speech in The New
York Times and the Washington Post, 18 March 1943, picked up from the
Associated Press wire service...

The Irish Independent, Thursday March 18, 1943, has a similar short =
item.
It is headed LANGUAGE PLEA BY MR. DE VALERA, and sums up the speech as a
plea for the restoration of the Irish language. It makes no mention of
maidens, comely or otherwise.

5.
If I can report on my own reactions when I read the text of the speech =
for
the first time... I was actually shocked.

Of course I came to the speech from the study of emigration. And I
interpreted the wishes, and the policies, outlined in the speech as =
recipes
for emigration. It seemed to me extraordinary cold blooded.

The other thing that struck me was the diction. Parts of it read like a
ballad - with the listing of wishes or memories that you find in song. =
As I
have said before, this is Irishness as a version of pastoral.

It might partly be a generation thing - there is the same turning to =
poetic
diction in the Tryst with Destiny speech by Jawaharlal Nehru.

Patrick O'Sullivan