From: Carmel McCaffrey
Subject: Re: Ir-D Irish in Britain (Resumed)

To add to the discussion re Irish in Britain in the 70s I was an undergraduate
in Southampton during this time and the anti-Irish feeling was rampant in the
student life and the staff. The "Irish problem' was seen as entirely that - the
Brits were only there to 'maintain peace' and not as an integral problem. In my
early student days the Vietnam was was winding down and English students were
marching with indignation to the US Embassy to protest the presence of US troops
in Nam. When I pointed out to the 'radical' student leader that he might well
march on the House of Commons to protest the presence to Brit Troops in Ireland
I drew a complete blank. At that time in the history Dept there they knew
nothing of Irish experience or the experience throughout the Empire of their
presence. At one lecture a professor drew laughter when he suggested that the
Irish were crazy and that they even 'blamed' the British for the Famine. I went
to he professor afterwards to protest his comment and suggest that he read up on
Irish history. He just ignored me. I afterwards heard from another staff
member that I was labelled as typically Irish - always looking for trouble. I
am native Irish.

Near where I lived was a council estate that I used to walk through to the shops
and an Irish family living there eventually hung an enormous Union Jack on their
door to try and placate neighbours who were becoming unfriendly in their
anti-Irish comments. British ignorance of Irish history is widespread. I doubt
if even now they deal with it in their schools and this leads to the
anti-Irishness found in their thinking.

To illustrate this in his excellent work on 'Ulster' [another misnomer] Jon
Bardon describes in detail the ignorance of the British PM and cabinet in the
late 60s of Northern Irish affairs and even how the state came into being!

Carmel McC.

From: Kerby Miller
Subject: IRA bombings and anti-Irish sentiments in Britain.

I hope I may be forgiven for inquiring whether comparable questions are
being asked as to whether English and Scottish Protestants of recent Ulster
descent, or members of Scottish Orange Lodges (and in England, if still
extant), suffer similar prejudice or discrimination--or feel collective
embarrassment and guilt, or are expected by anyone to feel so--as a result
of Loyalist bombings and assassinations in Northern Ireland, the Republic
of Ireland, and even in Namibia?

Likewise, am I wrong in my impression that little or no research, or even
public inquiries, or soul-searchings, resulted from the 1974 bombings in
Dublin and Monaghan?--And that the broader implications of such incidents,
e.g. for issues of national identities, have not been drawn?

Just asking--in the spirit of broadening the scope of inquiry and discussion.

Kerby Miller

From: "Brian McGinn"
Subject: Re: Ir-D Irish in Military

In response to Elizabeth Malcolm's queries:

Have no information on Vietnam-era conscription policies in
Australia, with exception of the experience of one Irish
would-be soldier who emigrated with the specific goal of
enlisting in Australian forces and serving in Vietnam.
According to the Irishman's first-person account, the
recruiting sergeant in Sydney reluctantly turned him down.
He explained that he was restricted by Australian law to
enlisting citizens of the British Commonwealth. The issue
was then appealed to the back office, where with a wink and
a nod a recruiting officer 'readmitted' the Republic to the
Commonwealth and granted the Irishman his wish. This
incident was related on Myles Dungan's RTE radio series,
Distant Drums, about Irish soldiers in foreign armies. Book
by same title was published by Appletree Press, Belfast,
1993.

As myself a late 1960s draftee into US forces, I can shed some
light on Vietnam-era conscription policies in the States.
All draft-age males, citizens or not, were subject to
conscription for two-year terms in US Army. All other
branches of US forces relied on volunteers. Eligible Irish
immigrants employed a number of strategies to avoid the
draft and/or service in Vietnam. Some simply postponed
emigration until the draft was abolished (replaced by a
lottery). Historian Patrick Blessing, who himself served
two tours in Vietnam with the US Marines, notes "a
significant overall decline in the movement of young male
emigrants from Ireland" beginning in 1966 (Michael Glazier,
ed., Encyclopedia of the Irish in America, p. 469). Other
went home (though only one personally known to me) to avoid
service. Many opted for a safe compromise by joining the
National Guard (State-based militia units). It was common
knowledge that these units were very unlikely to be
mobilized for overseas service. However, they filled up
early in the War, leaving remaining or later Irish
immigrants with the option of enlisting ( a tradeoff of at
least one extra year in uniform versus a chance to choose a
non-combat military specialty); being drafted (with very
high probability of assignment to combat infantry);
resisting (applying for Conscientious Objector status,
going AWOL); or going home with little or no prospect of
ever returning.

Have seen no figures or even estimates on numbers who
choose various options. In general, I would argue that
recent Irish immigrants were more liable to draft than US
native-born, who had better access to, and information on,
creative strategies for medical/psychological deferments,
and could better afford to delay or avoid draft by
attending university as full-time students.

Then there is the intangible factor of Irish attraction to
military service, which appears to have been operative in
US as well as Australia. My own analysis of the 16
Irish-born killed in Vietnam during service with US forces
shows that five--less than a third--were draftees.
Undoubtedly some of these young men were still Irish
citizens. Another five appear to have been career officers
and NCOs, most in their late 20s and early 30s.
Significantly, six of the younger volunteers were Marines,
a choice of service that practically guaranteed combat in
Vietnam, where the Corps suffered proportionally heavier
casualties than during the horrific fighting of its WWII
Pacific Island campaign.

It is not clear whether this preliminary breakdown of
Irish-born casualties is in way representative of the
broader Irish population that served and survived; Declan
Hughes in Dublin and Vickie Curtin, with the Coalition of
Irish Immigrant Centers in Washington D.C., are attempting
to compile a database of all Irish-born who served in US
Armed Forces. A daunting task, as the official US
Department of Defense breakdown of Vietnam casualties is by
hometown of record. Most Irish who served during that
period listed the address of a US relative rather than
their place of birth. And most of the Irish casualties
appear to have taken home for burial, leaving fewer records
and memories for US researchers.

Brian McGinn
Alexandria, Virginia

From: "Anthony McNicholas"
Subject: Re: Ir-D Irish in Britain (Resumed)

Dear Enda,

I would echo the responses of other Ir-D list members about Irish people in this
country being held responsible in some way for IRA activities. The finger of
guilt was indeed pointed very liberally. A Plymouth-Brethren-turned-Mormon
workmate of mine from Bangor County Down was regularly accused of being in
league with the Provos in London in the 80s.

I am of the opinion (and I fully recognise it is just an opinion) that the
nature of anti-Irish racism is not changed qualitatively by IRA actions. It
seems to me that the Irish just become more visible at these times. There
would be a corresponding quantitative change in the level of anti-Irish
feeling. If you compare with the nineteenth century, what has changed is the
present day absence of associations between Irishness and poverty, the rest
of the lexicon of abuse was there then and is still available as required.
(The lack of poverty as an assigned attribute of the Irish is paradoxical
when you consider the work that has been done in recent years on the
ill-health, unemployment etc suffered by many Irish people here).

I think what happens is that for short periods around particular incidents,
or for longer periods surrounding times of high tension like the hunger
strikes of 1981, airing such opinions is more acceptable in 'polite'
society. For the rest of the time, the Irish are more or less invisible.

Britain (probably Europe) of the 1960s was much more racist than it is
today, opinions that we would now regard as detestable were common currency
then. You just have to look at depictions of, say, West Indians in the
television of the time to see what I mean. Again though, is it a qualitative
difference, or is it merely that then it was acceptable and for that reason
more widespread?

The difficulty I think you have is in ascertaining whether phenomena such as
IRA bombs are any more than a trigger for an existing feeling. In the mid
1860s, Londoners might have speculated that every Irishman had some Greek
Fire shoved up his jumper, in the mid 1970s, 80s or 90s (let us hope not the
00s) it might be semtex. There is no real difference.

Anthony McNicholas

From: Brian McGinn [mailto:bmcginn[at]clark.net]
Subject: Montserratian-Irish Events


Paddy,

For some years, the Irish and Montserratian immigrant
communities have been hosting joint events, including
immigration workshops, in the Boston area. I'm forwarding,
below, notices of upcoming 'Black and Green'
functions in Boston and, from the Montserratian exile
community in England, an announcement of grand plans for
St. Patrick's Day celebrations in Birmingham. Both courtesy
of the Montserrat (MNI) List, the Electronic Evergreen.

Brian McGinn
Alexandria, Virginia
bmcginn[at]clark.net


1.
Boston, USA

Via MNI-INFO . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . .
MAI's UPCOMING FUNCTIONS:

February 20, 2000 - Black and Green
Function 2 - 5pm
Theme: "StoryTelling" $10
A Joint Program with the Irish
Immigration Center.


March 18, 2000 - St. Patrick's Day
Function $10
Music by Caribbean Cruise Band & Sounds
Incorporated

- --
Hale and Dorr LLP Janice Galloway
Computer Operator http://www.haledorr.com
janice.galloway[at]haledorr.com

2.
Birmingham, England

Via MNI-INFO

Hello,

If you are not planning to be in Montserrat for St
Patrick's Day 2000 you dont have to miss out.

The Montserrat Community Support Trust (MCST) is bringing
together Montserratians from across the UK for a grande event at the
Ladywood Arts and Leisure Centre in Birmingham on Saturday 18 March from
7:30pm.

The programme will feature the Alliouagana Singers and
Bernadette Irish supported by a showcase of Montserratian talent (music,
drama, dance & song).

Transportation and Concert vouchers from cities throughout
England are available at £5 adults and £2 children.

Don't ask about food! The Montserratians and Friends
Organization of Birmingham is catering for the occasion.

Thanks for your kind attention.

Claude H(ogan)

The Electronic Evergreen, courtesy of GEM Radio
Network

From: Dymphna Lonergan
Subject: Re: Ir-D Irish in Britain (Resumed)

It may be slightly interesting that being Irish in
Australia has also been a 'problem' at time over the
past 30 years. I remember one work colleague (with
whom I had never had a conversation) stopping me in
the corridor the day after Lord Mountbatten was
killed, and saying 'I imagine even you must be sorry
about that' - emphasis on you. As I said he had no
knowledge of me or my politics but simply assumed
that i was in support of IRA activities. In another
job one woman regularly expected me to account for the
latest IRA bombing. In these cases I could not say I
was discriminated against as these people were not in
a position of power, but i was, and felt marginalised
at those times

Dymphna Lonergan

The Transforming Power of the Nuns
Women, Religion, and Cultural Change in Ireland, 1750-1900

Mary Peckham Magray, Assistant Professor of History, Wesleyan College,
USA

196 pages, 10 halftones, 2 maps, 234mm x 156mm
Imprint: OUP USA

Hardback, 0-19-511299-7
UK Price: £32.00
Publication date: 23 July 1998

[There was some discussion of this volume earlier on the Ir-D list.

Irish-Diaspora list member, Janet Nolan, wrote a report on this volume, before
publication, for the publisher, Oxford University Press. Janet has kindly made her 1996
notes on the volume available to the Irish-Diaspora list.

In 1996 the author was known as Mary Peckham and now, it will be noted, is known as Mary
Peckham Magray. To avoid confusion I have so amended Janet Nolan's note.

Our thanks to Janet Nolan for making these comments available to the Ir-D list.

P.O'S.]


From Janet Nolan...

I recommend without reservation the publication of Mary Peckham's [now Magray] manuscript,
"Catholic Female Congregations and Religious Change in Ireland, 1770-1870." [Published as
The Transforming Power of the Nuns: Women, Religion, and Cultural Change in Ireland,
1750-1900 by Oxford UP in 1998]. The work is exceptionally well-written and imaginatively
researched, and will be a major addition to the steadily growing scholarship on the
history of Irish women in the nineteenth century.

Peckham Magray contends that the cultural revolution in nineteenth-century Ireland was
spearheaded by the work of women religious who had been steadily ingratiating themselves
into the everyday life of Catholic Ireland since the late 18th century through their
social welfare, health care, and educational activities. Her work is a major reexamination
of the conventional wisdom on this subject. It takes on Emmet Larkin, and makes a
convincing case against his classic thesis that the "Devotional Revolution" was initiated
from the top down by male religious leaders. In addition, it challenges the work of
Catriona Clear who argues that nuns were passive and subservient. Instead, Peckham Magray
demonstrates that these women were social activists who vociferously and successfully
resisted the efforts of the male hierarchy to take their independence from them. Only at
the very end of the century, when convents were no longer exclusively staffed by wealthy
middle-class women, did nuns subordinate themselves fully to the newly centralized male
church leadership.

While the manuscript is already in excellent shape for publication, some additions would
improve it... [There follow some technical comments, which were addressed in the
published volume, as were many of the historical arguments, below...] Lastly, this
excellent work ought to have a better title so that it will attract the wide readership it
deserves.

More substantially, the introduction could be expanded so that from the start the reader
is alerted to the fact that Peckham Magray is making a case against the female passivity
thesis of Clear and the male domination thesis of Larkin. In addition, while her class
analysis of convent formation and female independence is fascinating, her claim that nuns
became more passive by the end of the nineteenth century because more and more lower-class
(and by inference, passive) women and fewer and fewer middle- and upper-class (and by
inference, active) women joined convents over time is not sufficiently proven. Perhaps the
growing passivity of nuns stemmed from their success as devotional revolutionaries
practicing what they preached instead of from some psychological divide based on social
class.

Even more importantly, the claim that nuns spearheaded the devotional revolution in
Catholic Ireland in the course of the nineteenth century is a bold one but not completely
proven. Peckham Magray's nuns, rather than Larkin's bishops, are credited here with
single-handedly changing the cultural values and behavior of the Catholic masses in
Ireland in the course of a few generations. No mention is made of the other forces for
change in nineteenth century Ireland, however. For example, both 1815 and 1845 have been
seen as watershed years in the social, economic, and demographic history of Ireland by
several well-known scholars. Furthermore, much of the recent literature on the Famine of
the late 1840s shows how this trauma eliminated the cottier and laborer classes from
Ireland. The groups that survived the Famine were, for the most part, the modernized
farmer and commercial classes who had already converted to the cultural values espoused by
middle-class nuns. In fact, as Peckham Magray demonstrates, nuns were from these
middle-class families themselves. Since the Church followed as much as led the laity in
the adoption of cultural values that promoted demographic and social change, nuns may have
been beneficiaries as much as initiators of long term cultural change in Ireland.

Peckham Magray's investigation of convent formation and the new preeminence of nuns as
cultural leaders in Ireland demonstrates that the activities of women must be added to the
historical record. By doing so, it joins such pioneering work on Irish women's active
social and economic roles as Suellen Hoy's and Janet Nolan's, which also assert that Irish
women were not only active participants in their own destinies but that they were also
major influences on the development of Irish life at home and in the diaspora. (It should,
however, reconsider its assertion that Nolan's Ourselves Alone claims that entering the
convent was an avenue for social mobility for many Irish women. On the contrary, Nolan
argues that relatively few women joined convents in the course of the fifty years
surrounding the Famine of the late 1840s, despite the growing importance of the female
religious in Irish life in those years. As a result, Peckham Magray's point that only
wealthy middle-class women were full members of convents is upheld, not contradicted, by
Nolan's earlier book.)

Peckham Magray provides an important addition to the growing literature on Irish women in
the nineteenth century. Women, long ignored by the Irish and Irish-American history
establishment, have in recent years been returned to their rightful place as historical
actors. As Peckham Magray shows, women can no longer be dismissed as passive followers of
male social expectations. Her work builds on the work of Joanna Bourke, Suellen Hoy, Maria
Luddy, Cliona Murphy, Grace Neville, Janet Nolan and others. Peckham Magray's efforts will
be widely read, admired, and debated.

Janet Nolan
Loyolas University Chicago
1996

From: "alex peach"
Subject: Re: Ir-D anti-Irish sentiments


I think Kerby Miller's question is very pertinent. Certainly if you have the
cultural marker of an Irish accent then your political heritage is
irrelevant. Protestant Irish are viewed (in those parts of Britain that do
not have an historical link with Ireland and subsequently anti-Irish/
Protestant culture) as Irish first and British only if its explained to them
that Northern Ireland is actually part of Britain, even then they find it
difficult to understand this. Having had many arguments with my friends and
colleagues on this issue over many years I really believe that the British
think Northern Ireland is populated by madmen.

In the UK - as far as the official media concerned and therefore
axiomatically "public opinion"- the close relationship of Loyalism to
British nationalism has rendered it somewhat invisible within the terrorist
discourse. It must not be forgotten that the public perception of Irish
terrorism in the UK was until recently very simplistic and coloured by
dis-information, propaganda and prejudice. Assassinations of Government
ministers and members of the Royal Family, attacks on the "mainland", such
as the mortar bombing of Downing Street during a Cabinet meeting, the deaths
of innocents etc. etc. resulted in a privileging of those that were
attacking the British State as being the overwhelming problem. Hardly
surprising perhaps seeing as the British state - one of the oldest and most
stable liberal democracies in the world - was under such violent attack in
its own back yard.

Growing up in the 1970s and 80s in Britain I became aware very quickly that
my Irish heritage had given me a far more rounded view of the issues. My
peers were firstly not very interested in Ireland and secondly not aware of
the issues behind the conflict assuming that all violence came from the IRA.
The British media is overwhelmingly right wing nationalist in Britain and
stoked the fires of the conflict in an anti-IRA discourse rather than
couching their reportage in terms of conflict resolution which would require
a greater historical and political perception of the problem. Obviously many
members of the media are also closely linked with politicians and the state
security services and as such were part of the "war effort".

Since the Northern Ireland Peace process has begun, the issues behind the
conflict and the groups involved have been more intelligently reported,
although certain elements of the British press and their establishment
backers are still against the Good Friday Agreement. The reportage of (and
behaviour at) the annual Drumcree Orange Order march has opened many peoples
eyes in this country to the existence of militant Unionism in Northern
Ireland for the first time. However, it has fed into many stereotypes of the
Irish as being violent and irrational (a fellow Ph.D. student opined during
the last march that he thought all the Irish were just childish showing a
lack of understanding for a history student that beggars belief but
unfortunately this is a perception that is not uncommon over here).

On the whole, the average British subject, (and especially the English) do
not understand what is going on. They have no historical perception of Irish
nationalism or awareness of the issues behind the resurgence of the IRA in
the 1960s and 70s and the British state's culpability in letting the
Unionist state get away with such anti-liberal democratic policies towards
its Catholic citizens. This is the problem. We need to have the history of
Ireland and Northern Ireland on the national curriculum, which of course is
an area of highly politicised hegemonic contestation.

This all sounds very bleak, but after decades of anti-nationalist propaganda
in Britain concerning Northern Ireland, with democratic political movements
such as the SDLP marginalised in the reportage by the IRA's murderous
activities, we should hope that the peace process continues and the
histories of this troubled province are told in a more balanced manner as
has already begun. The British certainly are more than capable of
understanding the issues but have been kept somewhat in the dark. As an
English student said to me recently after a lecture on Ethnic Conflict in
Northern Ireland "until today I just thought they were all mad".

Alex Peach
DeMontfort University
Leicester
UK

- -----Original Message-----
From: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
To: irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk
Date: 18 February 2000 11:09
Subject: Ir-D anti-Irish sentiments


>
>From: Kerby Miller
>Subject: IRA bombings and anti-Irish sentiments in Britain.
>
>I hope I may be forgiven for inquiring whether comparable questions are
>being asked as to whether English and Scottish Protestants of recent Ulster
>descent, or members of Scottish Orange Lodges (and in England, if still
>extant), suffer similar prejudice or discrimination--or feel collective
>embarrassment and guilt, or are expected by anyone to feel so--as a result
>of Loyalist bombings and assassinations in Northern Ireland, the Republic
>of Ireland, and even in Namibia?
>
>Likewise, am I wrong in my impression that little or no research, or even
>public inquiries, or soul-searchings, resulted from the 1974 bombings in
>Dublin and Monaghan?--And that the broader implications of such incidents,
>e.g. for issues of national identities, have not been drawn?
>
>Just asking--in the spirit of broadening the scope of inquiry and
discussion.
>
>Kerby Miller
>

From: Peter Gray
Subject: Ir-D Irish in Britain (Resumed)


Dear Carmel

Its good to know that some things do change for the better!
As an Irish historian teaching Irish history at Southampton
University for the past 4 years I have to report that I
have had nothing but serious and critical engagement from
the student body for courses ranging from 1798 through the
Great Famine to the Northern Ireland peace process, and
complete support from my colleagues in getting Irish
history onto the curriculum. This might be read in several
ways - as a generational shift (widespread in history
departments in the UK) away from a narrowly
(even arrogantly) anglocentric world-view towards a more
critically-aware interest in the plural histories of these
islands - and/or as the consequence of a lessening of the
crudely polarizing animosities of the 70s-80s
that has been associated with the 1990s peace process. My
sense from recent experience is that there has also been
something of a shift in the school curriculum level, as I'm
encountering more English undergraduates (albeit still a
minority) who have done at least a little Irish history at
school. I'm more concerned at the huge ignorance there
seems to be about the history of the British Empire.

Best wishes
Peter Gray

On Fri, 17 Feb 2000 10:01:09 +0000
irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk wrote:

>
> From: Carmel McCaffrey
> Subject: Re: Ir-D Irish in Britain (Resumed)
>
> To add to the discussion re Irish in Britain in the 70s I was an undergraduate
> in Southampton during this time and the anti-Irish feeling was rampant in the
> student life and the staff. The "Irish problem' was seen as entirely that - the
> Brits were only there to 'maintain peace' and not as an integral problem. In my
> early student days the Vietnam was was winding down and English students were
> marching with indignation to the US Embassy to protest the presence of US troops
> in Nam. When I pointed out to the 'radical' student leader that he might well
> march on the House of Commons to protest the presence to Brit Troops in Ireland
> I drew a complete blank. At that time in the history Dept there they knew
> nothing of Irish experience or the experience throughout the Empire of their
> presence. At one lecture a professor drew laughter when he suggested that the
> Irish were crazy and that they even 'blamed' the British for the Famine. I went
> to he professor afterwards to protest his comment and suggest that he read up on
> Irish history. He just ignored me. I afterwards heard from another staff
> member that I was labelled as typically Irish - always looking for trouble. I
> am native Irish.
>
> Near where I lived was a council estate that I used to walk through to the shops
> and an Irish family living there eventually hung an enormous Union Jack on their
> door to try and placate neighbours who were becoming unfriendly in their
> anti-Irish comments. British ignorance of Irish history is widespread. I doubt
> if even now they deal with it in their schools and this leads to the
> anti-Irishness found in their thinking.
>
> To illustrate this in his excellent work on 'Ulster' [another misnomer] Jon
> Bardon describes in detail the ignorance of the British PM and cabinet in the
> late 60s of Northern Irish affairs and even how the state came into being!
>
> Carmel McC.
>
>

----------------------
Peter Gray
Department of History
University of Southampton
pg2[at]soton.ac.uk

'The Memory of Catastrophe' Conference
Southampton, 14-17 April 2000
http://www.soton.ac.uk/~ko/

From: DanCas1[at]aol.com
Subject: Re: Ir-D anti-Irish sentiments in the 1970s

In a message dated 2/18/00 3:06:59 AM Pacific Standard Time,
irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk writes:

>


A Chairde:

In July 1999 I conducted a number of filmed interviews with Irish-born and
Irish-stock (parents or grandparents born in Ireland) individuals, who had
been living in Britain during the 1970s. They included a professor, a
laborer, a nurse, an Irish community activist, and a clerical worker.

All of them mentioned the effect of the Prevention of Terrorism Act on the
Irish community in Britain in the 1970s and 80s.

The nurse, who had a northern Irish accent, said it was a "frightening time"
to be Irish and mentioned the Birmingham 6 arrests. She said it seemed a time
when "Irish equaled IRA and the PTA equaled fear."

The activist characterized the 70's as a decade when Irish-identified
individuals "kept (their) heads down" in the midst of a pervasive climate of
"fear." He stated that in his opinion the media played a "key role" in
promoting the "outbreaks of anti-Irish hysteria and attacks throughout the
country." It wasn't until the "early 1980s (that) questions started to be
asked why Irish people are treated this way (in Britain)."

The construction worker stated that it was widely known "...what could happen
to innocent people. One hundred thousand (Irish) people a year were being
stopped." "Finally," he said, "the Irish community" in Britain began to
"...slowly lift its head up again, as the campaigns for the Birmingham 6 and
Guilford 4 started."

One of those interviewed mentioned that "There was no St. Patrick's Day
parade in Birmingham from 1974-1992. We didn't dare march." Another said.
"You could cut the paranoia (in the London Irish community) with a knife."

The activist concluded by saying that "the attitude towards the Irish over
the past half century has oscillated...at certain stages merely patronizing.
But when there are political problems (there is) a tendency to demonize the
Irish. The depictions of Irish people (are) prosecutable."

The professor asserted that in her opinion "even today, in certain sectors of
British society, anti-Irish racism is acceptable racism."

Finally, most of those interviewed agreed with the clerical worker that the
past decade had seen a qualitative change in the Irish community in Britain's
"confidence in itself."

These mini-excerpts are culled from more than 10 hours of film shot in
people's homes in London and at the London Irish Center (Camden) July 1-3,
1999.

Daniel Cassidy

From: Dymphna Lonergan
Subject: sheelas in their various forms

I am currently researching the Irish origin of the
Australian word 'sheila' - a generic term given here
to females. I'm interested in the various occurrences
of the first name Síle in Irish life. It is probably
best known in the form Sheela na Gig, the name given
to grotesque female figures found on some church
walls. It is also used for 'a heron' - Síle na
bportach, and 'an earwig' is Síle na bpíce' Sheila of
the Fork'. Dineen's Irish language dictionary has Síle
na Gadhar, a term which he says means 'the
personificaton of Ireland'. I've never heard this name
attributed to Ireland. Has anyone come across it and
does anyone know what the 'Gadhar' bit means (it reads
like the word for 'Goat')?
Any insight on Sheela would we welcomed (someone said
it might be Welsh originally)

Dymphna Lonergan
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

From: Cymru66[at]aol.com
Subject: Re: Ir-D Irish in Britain (Resumed)


It is good to know that Dr. Delaney is concerned with the roots and
development of anti- Irish feeling in Britain. Might I suggest that he adds
religion into the already complex range of factors involved. Being "Irish"
meant being "Catholic" and there are at least four centuries of evidence to
show that there was strong antipathy in Britain to Catholicism which
automatically transferred itself to hostility to the Irish.
Unfortunately, as everyone has pointed-out, most of the evidence of hostility
to the Irish in Britain is anecdotal. As a person of Irish descent, born in
Britain and spending most of my professional life, so far, in Universities in
Britain and Northern Ireland I could add to the anecdotes but will resist the
temptation.
It would be good if those of us who are interested in the study of the Irish
in Britain and the processes of integration and assimilation they are going
through could get together and devise some reliable and testable measures of
anti -Irish feeling in Britain like - does it really exist, if so how
widespread is it, how does it manifest itself, is it affected by IRA
activity, if so how much ............
Best,
John Hickey

From: "Anthony McNicholas"
Subject: Keneally query


- -Dear Ir-D list,
I came across a reference I am having trouble locating in Thomas Keneally's
The Great Shame. It was for the following:-

Kenealy, John Recollections of the Irish Republican Brotherhood, Written in
the year 1908, privately published, Los Angeles, 1908.

I have tried numerous libraries in England, Ireland and the USA but have not
been able to find out where it might be held. I would be very grateful for
any leads.
Anthony McNicholas

From: Jim Doan
Subject: Re: Ir-D Sheelas

For a discussion of several recent theories on the origin of the name,
"Sile na Gig (or gCioch)," see Barbara Freitag's article, "A New Light
on the Sheela-na-gig," in Eire-Ireland (Winter1998/Spring 1999), XXXIII,
3&4; XXIV, 1 (pp. 50-69).

Jim Doan

irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk wrote:

> From: Dymphna Lonergan
> Subject: sheelas in their various forms
>
> I am currently researching the Irish origin of the
> Australian word 'sheila' - a generic term given here
> to females. I'm interested in the various occurrences
> of the first name Síle in Irish life. It is probably
> best known in the form Sheela na Gig, the name given
> to grotesque female figures found on some church
> walls. It is also used for 'a heron' - Síle na
> bportach, and 'an earwig' is Síle na bpíce' Sheila of
> the Fork'. Dineen's Irish language dictionary has Síle
> na Gadhar, a term which he says means 'the
> personificaton of Ireland'. I've never heard this name
> attributed to Ireland. Has anyone come across it and
> does anyone know what the 'Gadhar' bit means (it reads
> like the word for 'Goat')?
> Any insight on Sheela would we welcomed (someone said
> it might be Welsh originally)
>
> Dymphna Lonergan

From: Carmel McCaffrey
Subject: Re: Ir-D Irish in Britain (Resumed)6

Peter,
Good to hear that things do change for the better! Your contribution to that is
obviously immense. I have other very good memories of my time at Soton but the
tension caused by the nightly reports of bombing in NI made it hard for Irish students
like myself to fully fit in. I got very sensitive about being repeatedly asked why
the Irish 'were fighting with each other' - in the end I just did not discuss it.
There was too wide a gap in knowledge.
Carmel

irish-diaspora[at]Bradford.ac.uk wrote:

> From: Peter Gray
> Subject: Ir-D Irish in Britain (Resumed)
>
> Dear Carmel
>
> Its good to know that some things do change for the better!
> As an Irish historian teaching Irish history at Southampton
> University for the past 4 years I have to report that I
> have had nothing but serious and critical engagement from
> the student body

From: "Elizabeth Malcolm"
Subject: Sheelas

Dear Paddy,

There's a small, but well illustrated, booklet produced by the National
Museum of Ireland/Country House in 1996 and written by Eamonn P. Kelly,
which provides a good general introduction to Sheela-na-Gigs. It's entitled
'Sheela-na-Gigs: Origins and Functions'. There was one piece of information
in it that particularly struck me: 'During the eighteenth century a Royal
Navy vessel named HMS Shiela-na-gig was active in the West Indies' (p.5). I
wonder who decided on that name!

More seriously, my recollection of Australia is that 'sheila' is not a
neutral term, but is pretty negative. When I lived there, if a man had
called me a 'sheila' I would not have liked it. Given the number of Irish
women in Australia during the 19th century, and the shortage of women among
other ethnic groups - except the English - I suppose it's not surprising
that an Irish female name should come to be used to indicate women
generally. I would be interested to know when it was first used in this
way. Also, does Dymphna Lonergan think that the negative connotations of
the word reflect attitudes to the Irish, as well as to women? And, I'm
wondering if there are popular terms to describe women, drawn from Irish
names or words, in other places that Irish emigrants went to. Or is
'sheila' unique?

Elizabeth Malcolm
Liverpool

From: "Paddy Walls"
Subject: Re: Ir-D Irish in Britain (Resumed)

Dear Patrick,

(rather incoherently)...To respond to some of the points raised by
others on the subject of the roots and continuance of anti-Irish
feeling in Britain, my work on experiences of Catholics and
Protestants of Irish and Scottish descent has shown that anti-
Irishness and anti-Catholicism continue to be linked here in the
west of Scotland. Interview accounts reveal experiences of
discrimination at work against Catholics and exclusion of Catholics
from a number of areas of social life. There are class and gender
differences and differences over time. Accounts of discrimination
and hostility against Catholics were related by both Catholics and
Protestants. My main concern has been to look at the ways in
which experiences of exclusion through being Catholic (90% Irish
descended in Glasgow) may be linked to the greater ill-health
among Glasgow's Catholics compared with non-Catholics.

It is heartening that the Scottish parliament has now decided to include a question
on religion in the next Census here which should provide a basis for
data-gathering on the position of Catholics as well as other
religious/ethnic minorities. This official recognition should help to
partly unravel in the future the extent of assimilation among the
Irish in Britain, as well as comparison of experiences in different
parts of Britain. The health data in Scotland as well as among the
second generation in England, queries previously taken-for-granted
assumptions of the easy assimilation of the Irish in Britain.

With regard to violence and its impact on hostilities in Glasgow,
my interviews revealed that 30 years of violence in Northern Ireland
have impacted on relations between the two religious communities
here with perception of a worsening of relations among the
communities at the onset of the troubles and in response to
situations such as Drumcree, where each religious grouping is
expected to take predictable sides.

I think that analyses of anti-Irish feeling in Britain need to take
account of not only experiences located at specific periods in time,
but also the variation in experiences in different geographical
locations (and variations by class and gender, often ignored).

Cheers,

Paddy W





Patricia Walls, Research Scientist, MRC Social and Public Health Sciences Unit, 6 Lilybank
Gardens,
Glasgow, Scotland, G12 8RZ (0141-357-3949)

From: MacEinri
Subject: Re: Ir-D Sheelas

Gadhar is an alternative (commonest in Conamara) for madra, or dog. The word
for goat is gabhar.


Piaras Mac Einri, Stiurthoir/Director
Ionad na hImirce/Irish Centre for Migration Studies
Ollscoil Naisiunta na hEireann, Corcaigh/National University of Ireland,
Cork
Faics/Fax 353 21 903326 Guthan/Phone 353 21 902889
Idirlion/Web http://migration.ucc.ie Post Leictreonach/Email
migration[at]ucc.ie

From Patrick O'Sullivan

I notice that Sidney L. Baker, The Australian Language, Angus & Robertson, Sydney, 1945,
pp 122-123, says that sheila 'came to us out of the English dialect, shaler, (NOTE 23
here), although it is commonly regarded as pure Irish. This supposition has been due to a
marriage of shaler with the Irish girl's name Sheila - a form of Cecilia or Celia - and
has produced such bastardiuzations as shielah (NOTE 24 here) and shielagh (NOTE 25 here)
by writers who have confused its origins.'

Note 23 gives Crowe, Australian Slang Dictionary, 1895, as source.
Note 24 gives Encylopedia Britannica, and Jice Doone, Timely Tips to New Australians.
Note 25 gives Brian Penton, Landtakers, 1934, p.15.

I have so far not been able to locate an English dialect word shaler in reference books
here.

I would not, of course, regard Baker as the last word on the subject - he is a great
pontificater. But his book is well sourced. I'd be inclined to compare Australian Sheila
with USA Bridget in the same period.

By the way, on p.185, Baker quotes Inglis, Our Australian Cousins, 1879: 'a Chinaman here
is mortally insulted if you call him paddy...'

P.O'S.

- --
Patrick O'Sullivan
Head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Email Patrick O'Sullivan
Irish-Diaspora list
Irish Diaspora Studies http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/

Irish Diaspora Research Unit
Department of Interdisciplinary Human Studies
University of Bradford
Bradford BD7 1DP
Yorkshire
England

From: Eileen A Sullivan [mailto:eolas1[at]juno.com]
Subject: ACIS Southern Regional Conference Cruise


Oh Paddy Dear ,

Did you hear about the fantastic voyage that a group of 70 people enjoyed
on the Ecstasy from Feb 4-7 of the millennial year? They gathered
together from AL, OR, PA., VA, WVA, CA, GA, NC, SC, TX, FL, MA, MO,
LA, NY, MN, NH, IL and of all places: England and Ireland, sailing from
Miami to Nassau.

Michael and Grainne Yeats, made it truly an Irish conference, and he
attended lectures; so, you know he wasn't there just to cruise the
Bahamian Islands. To put us all in the proper sphere on our first night
at sea, Cathal O' Searcaigh of Gortahork, Co. Donegal read his Irish
poetry (translated by Seamus Heaney), and we all applauded his mood
setting. Between the readings, Lillis O' Laoire from Gort a' Choirce in
the Donegal Gaeltacht sang a selection of songs in the sean-nos
tradition. Seamus hadn't translated them for us. I don't think he has
the voice for it. Lillis dedicated Eibhlin a Ruin to me, not knowing, of
course, that my life mirrored Eibhlin's love life. When not singing,
Lillis lectures in Irish at the University of Limerick and directs its
Ionad Cheol Cruiinne Eireann (The Irish World music Centre.)

Cathal, after getting us in the Irish mode, almost made me weep with his
poem about his pet sheep, Molly, who wandered away and fell off a hill
top, landing on a ledge from which she could not be rescued. Crows were
eating her eyes, and his mother was wise enough to console him and remove
him from the scene, but he was inconsolable. Molly was a metaphor for
the Irish language, dying in the nation, incapable of resuscitation. To
console Cathal, I assured him the language lives. My Kerry cousins
speak Irish, and a cousin-in-law teaches Irish at the National School in
the Black Valley of Kerry.

When I brought two cousins to Belfast and introduced them to Arthur
Hughes, the Celticist at Queens University. I expected to hear a lively
conversation, but after a few sentences; silence. The Kerry dialect and
the Ulster dialect don't meld. Cathal, we have two Irish languages. In
America, at my Irish educational seminars , I address the subject through
Paul Sullivan, a retired Special Services man from the Federal
Government. He tied in with the Washington, D.C. group and Coilin Owens
and will be in Gainesville for the next O'Sullivan/Sullivan seminar in
October, 2000. Better yet, he teaches Irish in Maryland to an avid group
of adults.

If Cathal can now be consoled, I hope to hear about Molly's ascent to the
hilltop where an oculist will heal her eyes, and she'll communicate with
us about her miraculous recovery for she never really lost her voice, and
sheep can sprout wings.

On our second night out on the Caribbean Sea, John Countryman of Ga and
Charlotte Headrick of Or presented a dramatic reading of Gardner Mc Kay's
SEA MARKS. John 's facial expressions and Irish brogue brought the old
fisherman to life, and Charlotte was a perfect match for the old
character as his old neglected sweetheart with a long memory.

After the cocktail party and dinner on our last night, three more poets,
Nathalie Anderson of Pa, Kathryn Kirkpatrick of NC, and John Menaghan of
Ca presented readings of their own creation. The audience bonded to
their intuitive renditions of life and love over the ages. After which,
some of the scholars even went to the top deck, singing songs of old
and new Ireland. Little Seamus Haggerty of NY (Mary Donnelly's son) not
yet walking or talking, joined the song fest under a star lit sky, lulled
to sleep in the arms of Richard Bizot of FL. He held the shortest
business meeting on record , about three minutes with total agreement
from the group. Darn, Richard, you forgot to determine if a quorum were
present. Back to the Bahamas!

In addition to Michael and Grainne Yeats, Cathal, and Lillis, another
islander was present. Eileen Fauset of Bretton Hall College at Sheffield,
England lectured on the intrigues of Julia Kavanagh's life. We arrived
on the Miami shore late Monday morning and Eileen had to teach on Tuesday
at the College. Somehow, I believe she met with her class and had a few
things to say about her wonderful study cruise with a group of American
scholars who discussed everything from Yeats( W. B. that is) to Yankee
imperialism.

Paddy, you put the program on the Diaspora list, and there is no need to
catalogue all the speakers and the range of interest. It is necessary to
state, however, that the southern region covers an outstanding depth of
scholarship which has widened our knowledge of women, Irish Confederates,
literary censorship , a slave holding Catholic Bishop, dramatic works,
the presence of 17th century Irish settlers in the Bahamas, and Irish
contributions to the South American independence movements of the 19th
century.

For this enlightment, we all owe Jim Doan a debt of gratitude for his
originality in suggesting and following through with a conference aboard
a ship which housed 2416 passengers. He and Mary Donnelly organized a
unique millennial celebration for the tenth anniversary of the
establishment of ACIS's southern region. Happily, other founders were
there to celebrate: Richard Bizot, Ron Suhuchard of Ga, and Rand
Brandes of NC. Jim competently executed the endless chores involved in
completing the business arrangements which got the lucky 70 people on
board the Ecstasy and GOT THEM OFF.

Go raibh cead maith agat, Seamaisin!!!

Dr. Eileen A. Sullivan, Director
The Irish Educational Association, Inc. Tel # (352) 332
3690
6412 NW 128th Street E-Mail :
eolas1[at]juno.com
Gainesville, FL 32653